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Old 01-19-2011, 05:21 PM   #1
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Electrician Nerd Needed - Induction Generation


Hi - My utility lets us sell power to the grid if we use biomass and they let you sell 10 megawatts. The income comes to $8 million a year if you can hook it up.

I'd settle for $100,000.

I'm really fixated on this. I think I need a therapist more than an electrician.

Grid connect is difficult and difficult but an arrangement called induction generation connects you to the grid. The phase is adopted by the generation so it always matches. You can brief yourself on this matter with inet searches.

I have lots of questions but I'll do this. I want to do 100kw - go ahead and dispell me.

Good luck!

Phillip

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Old 01-19-2011, 05:49 PM   #2
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Good luck generating 10,000,000 watts per hour for 24 hours a day and 365 day a year......

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Old 01-19-2011, 05:53 PM   #3
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Dude, don't get snarky. You live in MN which is next to WI. You want in? You can get in. WE pays $.155 per kw hour, the fed gives $.015 to make $.17.

500kw a day is $1000 in revenue during on peak. Running a gen is really easy, you'd want that business. You barely have to get out of bed.

P
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Old 01-19-2011, 06:13 PM   #4
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So, if I made the 100 kw and I fed it back via my house wires, where would it go? It can't go past the drum xformer so it would have to be used by the houses before the drum xformer.
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Old 01-19-2011, 06:17 PM   #5
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What utility is that?
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Old 01-19-2011, 06:19 PM   #6
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http://dsireusa.org/incentives/incen...I22F&re=1&ee=1

This one
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Old 01-19-2011, 06:24 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by pmanske View Post

Nope. I asked what Utility? Just curious. The regular supplier of your electric.
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Old 01-19-2011, 07:14 PM   #8
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To get $100,000 you need to provide 125KVA,
Thats just over 1000a at 120v,
Thats no small alternator,
Not to mention the needed power to turn the alternator,
Can you realistically provide this amount of power ?
Consistanilly and at a reasonable cost ?
Sounds good on the surfice but the devil is usually in the details.
Me thinks that if it could be done,
then more people would be doing it ?
Why arnt they ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmanske View Post
Hi - My utility lets us sell power to the grid if we use biomass and they let you sell 10 megawatts. The income comes to $8 million a year if you can hook it up.

I'd settle for $100,000.

I'm really fixated on this. I think I need a therapist more than an electrician.

Grid connect is difficult and difficult but an arrangement called induction generation connects you to the grid. The phase is adopted by the generation so it always matches. You can brief yourself on this matter with inet searches.

I have lots of questions but I'll do this. I want to do 100kw - go ahead and dispell me.

Good luck!

Phillip
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Old 01-19-2011, 07:21 PM   #9
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I suppose it's doable. Need a lot of smoke detectors though, like 1000's.

Would also need to dedicate the whole basement for the reactor, and turbines. DIY Nuclear energy.
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Old 01-19-2011, 07:36 PM   #10
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Ill start by saying I second a7e's statement. You will NOT have the possibility of creating 10MWh nor will you get rich off of this. You have to buy the fuel to burn plus you MUST have a LICENSED, CERTIFIED electrician install this system.

Second, power companies usually only allow you to sell back a percentage of excess power.
Example: lets say you use 1000kwh per month. You would only be able to sell back 500-750 kwh PER MONTH. Its called "Net Metering"

Quote:
500kw a day is $1000 in revenue during on peak. Running a gen is really easy, you'd want that business. You barely have to get out of bed.
Im going to break this down for you plain and simple. Your math is flawed. "Peak" is usually only for about 12 hours a day. To create 500kw in 12 hours, you must have a generator capable of 42KWh or more. Hypothetically lets say you CAN do this. (VERY difficult for a residential customer to be able to supply 42 Kwh via generator) Heres some simple math, 500*0.17 is what? $85.....I dont know how you got to 1000 bucks but your calcs are WAY off.

You WILL NOT be able to sell 100Kwh....I will tell you that right now.

Heres what I figure you can make. Your residence MORE THAN LIKELY has a service of not larger than 200A. Meaning you could not POSSIBLY sell back more than 48Kwh MAX per hour. The PROBLEM is that you still need to overcome your LOCAL (house) energy usage.............I dont know what your KWH usage is but all you need to do is take your per month usage and divide by 30 then 24 and add it to 48 to find what your generator would have to MINIMALLY be rated at.

ASSUMING 48Kwh these are your figures

Per day: 1.152 MW
Per month: 34.56 MW
Per year: 420.480 MW

Gross sales per year: (estimated at averages per Kwh @ $.10) $42,048.

Now a bit of business for ya....Gross means before costs.......lets add in costs....

You need to provide FUEL for 420.480 MWh of energy............whats your fuel source? Manure? Wood?
You need to maintain this system as it will run 24/7/365..........Service call might be upwards of $1000 bucks per incident
you need to install the system (Overhead).............
most utility companies have additional charges such as transmission charges, riders, taxes, etc....you have to factor those in (around here they are about 50 per month, so about $600 per year in extra costs)

You may not even be able to build the generator on your property being as it is used for commercial purposes...are you zoned for this? can you build it legally?

My estimation for NET PROFIT?

$2,000-$5,000 per year.....conservatively....You MIGHT be able to squeeze $10k out of it.

http://www.kohlerpower.com/onlinecatalog/pdf/g5316.pdf

Just as a starting reference heres a 50kw Diesel Generator.

2.4l T Charged John Deere

at 100% load it sucks down about 4 gallons of #2 Diesel PER HOUR

Heres some calcs again

Diesel is about 3.20 a gallon

Per hour: $12.8
Per day: $307.2
Per Week: $2150.4
Per month: $9126
Per year: $110,592

NOW since you MUST use biomass your fuel costs wont be AS BAD but you will still need to provide the energy that 4 gallons of Diesel produces per hour OR GREATER due to inefficiencies.

You will probably have a combustion chamber/boiler and a steam turbine type system.

Diesel has about 140,000 btu/gallon so you would need to create 560,000 BTUs per Hour............Plus have a steam turbine capable of capturing the energy and converting it to kinetic energy with minimal loss of energy.
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Last edited by LyonsElecSupply; 01-19-2011 at 07:46 PM. Reason: More info
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Old 01-20-2011, 02:35 AM   #11
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Electrician Nerd Needed - Induction Generation


Quote:
Originally Posted by pmanske View Post
Running a gen is really easy, you'd want that business. You barely have to get out of bed.
A 10MW generator isn't a "generator", it's a "generating station"! That's a small powerplant; the kind of system that's usually built into a structure rather than on wheels. Especially if you want to fuel it with biomass, it's going to be a continuous maintenance project.

A 100kW generator is much smaller, but anybody who's tried to keep one running 24/7 knows what it takes. You would be getting out of bed! Not even sure there are biomass generating systems that small available, though.
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Old 01-20-2011, 05:25 AM   #12
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Why don't you just drive a pickup truck on a pair of treadmills and harness the output together?
I hear that you can then drive a 100kW motor for every 140 RWHP. Each 100kW motor is good for one 1,000 kW generator, which will then drive a 10MW motor which can then drive a 100MW generator and so on and so forth.

Each step allows upconversion by a factor of 10, it's a fact.
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Old 01-20-2011, 10:35 AM   #13
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Get a solar panel, a spot light, hook them up together. Shine a flashlight on the solar panel, it will make the spot light produce light shining on the solar panel. The flashlight can now be turned off, and you now have unlimited power. Just need to tap into the solar panel to harvest it.

Actually when I was a little kid I wanted to do this, I thought it would work.
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Old 01-20-2011, 04:19 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyonsElecSupply View Post
Ill start by saying I second a7e's statement. You will NOT have the possibility of creating 10MWh nor will you get rich off of this. You have to buy the fuel to burn plus you MUST have a LICENSED, CERTIFIED electrician install this system.

Second, power companies usually only allow you to sell back a percentage of excess power.
Example: lets say you use 1000kwh per month. You would only be able to sell back 500-750 kwh PER MONTH. Its called "Net Metering"



Im going to break this down for you plain and simple. Your math is flawed. "Peak" is usually only for about 12 hours a day. To create 500kw in 12 hours, you must have a generator capable of 42KWh or more. Hypothetically lets say you CAN do this. (VERY difficult for a residential customer to be able to supply 42 Kwh via generator) Heres some simple math, 500*0.17 is what? $85.....I dont know how you got to 1000 bucks but your calcs are WAY off.

You WILL NOT be able to sell 100Kwh....I will tell you that right now.

Heres what I figure you can make. Your residence MORE THAN LIKELY has a service of not larger than 200A. Meaning you could not POSSIBLY sell back more than 48Kwh MAX per hour. The PROBLEM is that you still need to overcome your LOCAL (house) energy usage.............I dont know what your KWH usage is but all you need to do is take your per month usage and divide by 30 then 24 and add it to 48 to find what your generator would have to MINIMALLY be rated at.

ASSUMING 48Kwh these are your figures

Per day: 1.152 MW
Per month: 34.56 MW
Per year: 420.480 MW

Gross sales per year: (estimated at averages per Kwh @ $.10) $42,048.

Now a bit of business for ya....Gross means before costs.......lets add in costs....

You need to provide FUEL for 420.480 MWh of energy............whats your fuel source? Manure? Wood?
You need to maintain this system as it will run 24/7/365..........Service call might be upwards of $1000 bucks per incident
you need to install the system (Overhead).............
most utility companies have additional charges such as transmission charges, riders, taxes, etc....you have to factor those in (around here they are about 50 per month, so about $600 per year in extra costs)

You may not even be able to build the generator on your property being as it is used for commercial purposes...are you zoned for this? can you build it legally?

My estimation for NET PROFIT?

$2,000-$5,000 per year.....conservatively....You MIGHT be able to squeeze $10k out of it.

http://www.kohlerpower.com/onlinecatalog/pdf/g5316.pdf

Just as a starting reference heres a 50kw Diesel Generator.

2.4l T Charged John Deere

at 100% load it sucks down about 4 gallons of #2 Diesel PER HOUR

Heres some calcs again

Diesel is about 3.20 a gallon

Per hour: $12.8
Per day: $307.2
Per Week: $2150.4
Per month: $9126
Per year: $110,592

NOW since you MUST use biomass your fuel costs wont be AS BAD but you will still need to provide the energy that 4 gallons of Diesel produces per hour OR GREATER due to inefficiencies.

You will probably have a combustion chamber/boiler and a steam turbine type system.

Diesel has about 140,000 btu/gallon so you would need to create 560,000 BTUs per Hour............Plus have a steam turbine capable of capturing the energy and converting it to kinetic energy with minimal loss of energy.


Hi Lyons, thank you for your reply. Yours was the meanest so I'll thank you the most.

These gens are UL approved and in operation already. Licensed electricians install them.

http://www.marathonelectric.com/gene...uals/SB317.pdf


The limits? WE doesn't state that in the details, they say up 10 Mega watt. The point is ominous and has me worried. Today I talked to a staff engineer
at Roman Electric and he said they just put a 500kw solar unit on their roof. The limit I have read is that WE buys up to 5% of the previous years retails sales but in the aggregate, that is all of the customer base.

Income? The utility pays $.155 per kilowatt hour. If I produce a 100kw hour I get $.15 * 100 = $15. 12 hours on peak = 12 * 15 = 180 * 5 (500kw) = $1000 a day ish.

I don't want to sell 500kw accumulated, I want to sell 500kw per hour.


Fuel? good point as its a weak point. You quoted $3.20 but thats retail bio diesel. You'll have to dig around but if you look and make agreements to but LOTS, like 30 metric tons a month you'll find it at $1.00 a gallon. Veg oil works too but the same deal. That leads us to wood biomass and some form of gasification. Wood gas is a mess. Pyrolysis oil is much better but alot harder to get although it should be cheap.

Altogether another discussion about biomass fuel and its fascinating but deserves another thread.

http://www.dieselserviceandsupply.co...nsumption.aspx

Fuel use chart.

Running a gen is really easy. You need to fuel but it still pretty easy. Fuel, check oil and water and air filter and thats all. The gens run themselves.

Problems? The Gens don't have to run 24/7. I shut down at off peak. A local diesel mechanic makes the repairs. Its OK if the system is offline.


Grid connect was difficult but induction generation solves that. The gens are certified and UL approved.

Production? Easy - a 200KW gen makes 200 kilowatts an hour.

Zoning? No problem, just move to an industrial area and get a shop. You are still a customer albeit not residential and the agreement applies.

Smoke? I have lived with gens before in the Navy. It was unpleasant. I smelled smoke and heard the noise but thats work. You'll have to funnel exhaust somewhere outside within environ laws ands codes.

Taxes, yes but not crippling.

Your point about line load was the best. How do I get passed the the 200 amp breaker? I thought about that and talked to the engineer and he did not seem to be concerned. I asked again and he was not concerned and told he Roman Electric sells 500kw per hour daily from their roof. We have digester plants in WI that sell big electric so its not impossible. I thought I would have to do higher voltage and he said no, 220 or 440 works fine right back into the input line.


This baby is good.

http://cgi.ebay.com/220kw-PRIMELINE-...ht_1219wt_1139


I did not like your limit argument, you got kind of vague and did not cite a reference. There is a specific rule that WE enforces and they are not throwing that around. You did not cite a specific document or rule. The utility posts large limits and I know farms that sell 750kw per hour and provide under this agreement.

Thank Lyons, good job!

P
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Old 01-20-2011, 05:17 PM   #15
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Poop! I made big reply and now its gone.

Poop!


Lyons response was the most aggressive. I thank him the most.


http://www.hardydiesel.com/generator...generators.pdf

http://cgi.ebay.com/220kw-PRIMELINE-...ht_1219wt_1139


These are the babies. These connect you to the grid with the power. Takes care of synchronization, voltage reg and its all UL approved. Lic Electrician already installs them.

Fuel? Yes its not cheap. Yes, biodiesel goes for $3.29 a gallon. I beak even at $2.00 a gal. You can get cheap fuel but you have to buy LOTS, like a one year agreement at 50 metric tones. 1 & 1/2 a tanker a month.

Money? I want to sell 500kw hour. I need a gen that rated at 600 KW and than means the machine makes 600 kw per hour. Run at 75% ish is 500kw 500 * .155 * 12 = $1000 ish. I dont want to sell 500kw accumulated, I want to sell 500kw per hour. Half of that for fuel? $500 take home. 75%? $250 take home. I'm middle class. That is still a lot of money for me.

I dont have to operate at 24/7. I shut down during off peak. Machine breaks down, I call the diesel mech if the engine goes.

Running a gen is easy. Not only is this money good, there is no work involved once the plant is connected. I mostly have the day off to call fuel sellers and remind them they are breaking my balls.

Amp limit? Excellent point. I thought about that all night. I talked to the engineer at Roman Electric today and he said his company puts out 500kw from solar on his roof to the grid everyday to the 220 line. 500kw is lots of power and I thought it was too much, I thought I may have to transform to a much higher voltage but he said no. I'm not certain so I'll ask again.

Zoning? Sure, just get a shop zoned for light industrial. Shops like that have heavier electric wires.

5% limits? WE seems to have a limit but that limit is applied to the aggregate, that is put against all retail sales, not one customer. The are several big E sellers to WE. Farms with biodigesters for instance.

Fuel again? Next is biomass with some form of gasification after diesel. Not suitable for discussion here on this thread but a good discussion none the less.

Taxes? yes but not crippling.

Insurance = $5000 a year.


More later

P

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