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Old 01-06-2009, 09:16 PM   #46
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Electrical SubMeter Wiring Help - Please.


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Originally Posted by Stubbie View Post
But I'm betting my donuts that as soon as the poco sees that meter they are going to get real curious.

Then the building department gets involved, then all hell breaks loose, no permits, no inspections, no license guy doing the work.

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Old 01-06-2009, 09:54 PM   #47
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Electrical SubMeter Wiring Help - Please.


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Then the building department gets involved, then all hell breaks loose, no permits, no inspections, no license guy doing the work
Yes.. my whole point is this is not as simple as it seems and I'm not talking about wiring in a sub-meter. That's really not an issue. My point is if all this is taken as a whole it becomes more complicated than one first thinks. Several little things become a big thing and then you have created a monster of a problem. For example I can tell you that you cannot supply a mobile home as a feeder from that house main panel if that mobile home is a permanent residence as rental property. Not easy to explain you need to familiarize yourself with Art.550. and of course California code. I just think Jason needs to be more thorough and use a little common sense here. He seems to have some common sense just this whole thing to me is a poor judgement. I don't think he has looked beyond a simple wiring of a sub-meter.
Frankly I'm not sure if he would be very liable for installing a sub-meter unless something catches fire and his friend rats him out. The majority of the problems that could occur from this will rest solely on the owner of the property. Assuming no one would get hurt from an electrical issue traced to the installation of the meter. I think you would be kidding yourself if a rental mobile home will go unnoticed forever, and again assuming his friend is trying to rent without proper property classification. The actual installation of a sub-meter I'm not real sure would even require a permit in many areas of the country if it isn't going to be used as a billing tool. If it is and it is to monitor electrical usage for a mobile home being used as a dwelling rental then best have all your bases covered....not just whether or not you know how to wire up the meter.
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Old 01-06-2009, 10:26 PM   #48
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Electrical SubMeter Wiring Help - Please.


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The circuit in question is a branch circuit from the main service panel in the house... There should be no such issue.
I realize this. That's why I said if you decide to go with.... Meaning if he wants to do it "the right way".
And as far being a rental, he's talking about a family where other family members are staying in the trailer. And those in the trailer want to pay their fair share.

Really Jason, the best option is to install a whole seperate meter socket for the trailer. Here in NH, the other meter would go on a pole or underground to a pedestal. With that being said, their easiest option would be to put in an emon demon (or equal) that utilizes ct's.

Here is a link to an emon demon wiring diagram. It will be really easy to hook up. It only draws 6va, so a 2-pole 15a breaker will work fine. Look for the diagram of single phase 120/240.

First you will need to make sure there is enough space to add a 2-pole breaker. If not, you will need to make room by adding two tandem breakers. Tandem breakers take one breaker space and make it two. They are different from a 2-pole breaker in the fact that both circuits of a tandem are on the same phase, on a 2-pole they are two different phases. When I have to make room in a panel this way, I always make sure that I put the circuits back onto the same phase they came off. Every other breaker is A phase, and the others are B phase (In a single phase system)
All the breakers on the left are odd, the right are all even. So let's just say for example you have a 20 circuit panel. The last two on the right are 18 and 20. You would install a tandem breaker in 14 and 16. You would take 18 and put it on the 14 tandem, and 20 would go on the 16 tandem. Make sure they are the same amperage rating. You can usually get tandems with 15/15, 20/20 and 15/20. Now you have free space at 18 and 20.


OK so say your all set and have two spaces available. Make sure you find a knockout location where the wires are going to be long enough to go to the breaker, and the ct's are long enough to reach the hot wires that go to the mobile home.

If you don't feel comfortable working live, kill the main or the breaker at the meter (if it has one). Remember, if you kill the main the wires going to the main are still live so be careful around them.
Knock out the knock out and install the pre-wired whip. When doing electrical work, always connect grounds first, then neutrals, then hots. When disconnecting, the reverse is true. Even if it's dead, keep in this habit.
Now remove wires that feed the mobile home. If they are aluminum, clean them with a brass wire brush after you slip the ct's over them, and then coat them with no-lox or some other anti-oxident designed to coat aluminum electrical wires. Now reinstall the wires, put the panel cover on, and fire it all up. You are done.
http://www.emon.com/pdfs/Meter%20Ins...verview%20.pdf
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Old 01-06-2009, 10:57 PM   #49
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Electrical SubMeter Wiring Help - Please.


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I'd like to hear a little more discussion about the legality of sub metering. Why on Earth would that be illegal, or not allowed by the utility?

Don't have a clue about California, but in Texas, submetering is an issue in terms of renters rights.

Our POCO couldn't care less. As long as their service is not bypassed and no thievery is going on, why would they? They also wouldn't read the second meter....it has nothing to do with them.

The issue came up when apartment complexes were submetering their renters and making a profit on it. Laws were passed to prevent gouging by landlords, but if this is by mutual agreement, there shouldn't be an issue.

And WOW!!!, I've never seen a thread deteriorate so quickly! What happened to all that valium out in California?
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Old 01-07-2009, 11:26 AM   #50
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Electrical SubMeter Wiring Help - Please.


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There is nothing hard about our job, certainly not hard enough to act like it's rocket science. I always get a kick out of people who act like that. It's just simply something that someone else doesn't know how to do.
This mentality used to bug me. Now it pisses me off.

Well DUH! Of course it is not "rocket science". Not much is now is it.
It IS however an in depth trade with a LOT of codes, rules, requirements and techniques to MASTER.
Sure, anyone can run NM cable and "make it work". That IS easy. But to know what you are doing, doing it right, making it look nice, and most importantly doing it safely and to code, THAT takes years of experience.

Yes, we can explain to someone how to run a circuit or even replace a panel, but we are hand holding. There is a BIG difference between that and being a real electrician who gets paid to do what we do.

You seem to be one of us. DO NOT belittle our chosen trade. If you do you are hurting all of us!
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Old 01-07-2009, 02:35 PM   #51
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Electrical SubMeter Wiring Help - Please.


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This mentality used to bug me. Now it pisses me off.

Well DUH! Of course it is not "rocket science". Not much is now is it.
It IS however an in depth trade with a LOT of codes, rules, requirements and techniques to MASTER.
Sure, anyone can run NM cable and "make it work". That IS easy. But to know what you are doing, doing it right, making it look nice, and most importantly doing it safely and to code, THAT takes years of experience.

Yes, we can explain to someone how to run a circuit or even replace a panel, but we are hand holding. There is a BIG difference between that and being a real electrician who gets paid to do what we do.

You seem to be one of us. DO NOT belittle our chosen trade. If you do you are hurting all of us!

I am a diyer so I don't have much to say I guess. Having read many codes I can see where its not an easy job. Sparky's mentality doesn't make much sense. Sure, if I diddn't follow codes and just ran the cable or wired like a mess it would seem easy. Makes me question the workmanship of Sparky's work.

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