Electrical SubMeter Wiring Help - Please.

InPhase277 · 01-06-2009, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diamondblack

Chris75 sounds like another example of an electrician trying to defend their ridiculous rates.

Ridiculous rates? Where did Chris ever state a rate? As was stated, the owner isn't doing the work, they have asked this guy to do it. I'm not going to give advice to the handyman either. I think $1500.00 is quite high to run a single circuit, but that's why you get more than one estimate.

Just what should a quality licensed and insured electrician charge anyhow?

Stubbie · 01-06-2009, 03:51 PM

I don't think high rates has anything to do with diy. I think any rate is high for some people. They simply don't want to pay for something they assume they can do themselves. I've never met an electrician in my life that would charge 1500 bucks for the branch circuit previously mentioned. Unless their are snakes in the crawl space, or bees, or big spiders. As for myself I will work in any crawl space that is not flooded or overly muddy but that is because I get to choose... I work for myself these days.

When I was down in NO we went in a lot of crawl spaces. I remember a lineman hollering down at me from the access if I needed any help. I told him yeah another guy would be helpful as I had a couple gators cornered....he said he would go find someone.

I now have an estimate calculator with preset gator multipliers ....

For example the prementioned branch circuit ran 40 feet in a 3 foot crawl space with 2 gators would be $1215.00. So I would say 1500 bucks is reasonable considering everyones tollerances in crawl spaces and the critters envolved.

Inphase277 probably does a circuit like that much cheaper but I work alone and he uses a helper or in other words a gator distractor. Last I heard he was on his 5th helper due to attrition.

InPhase277 · 01-06-2009, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stubbie

Inphase277 probably does a circuit like that much cheaper but I work alone and he uses a helper or in other words a gator distractor. Last I heard he was on his 5th helper due to attrition.

Not "attrition", but "nutrition"! And I'd do the whole job for... treefidy

gp_wa · 01-06-2009, 05:35 PM

I've posted this a couple time in other threads... Why not use what the utilities use? And cheap.

http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trk...All-Categories

Example:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Sangamo-watt-hou...3%3A1|294%3A50

I'd like to hear a little more discussion about the legality of sub metering. Why on Earth would that be illegal, or not allowed by the utility?

chris75 · 01-06-2009, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gp_wa

I'd like to hear a little more discussion about the legality of sub metering. Why on Earth would that be illegal, or not allowed by the utility?

For one, you cannot profit from it, also who is going to read the meter, who is going to do the billing? Seems like a 3rd party will need to be involved as well.

Jasondt2001 · 01-06-2009, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gp_wa

I've posted this a couple time in other threads... Why not use what the utilities use? And cheap.

http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trk...All-Categories

Example:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Sangamo-watt-hour-watthour-meter-utility-power-test-ge_W0QQitemZ250352851257QQcmdZViewItemQQptZBI_Elec trical_Equipment_Tools?hash=item250352851257&_trks id=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205|66%3A2|65%3A12 |39%3A1|240%3A131

301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A50

I'd like to hear a little more discussion about the legality of sub metering. Why on Earth would that be illegal, or not allowed by the utility?

Those are EXACTLY what I want to use!

This has turned into one HUGE CLUSTER ****...holy cow... I didnt want this thread to turn into a fight amongst you all.
For you that helped me, sincerely, thank you.

For everyone else, I really wished you'd have moved on instead of waisting bandwidth.

Thank you for the tip about the dual leg breaker... I always thought it was split and the 50 was the TOTAL amperage - not 2 50 amp legs, THANK YOU! I've asked that so many times and NOONE seems to know, and forget this internet thing; everytime i search anything for breakers or info they just sell me something, GRRR.

Here's the story guys - It's not a licensed 'rental'. The homeowner is having family move there and they INSIST on paying their fair share.
They didn't know how to 'guesstimate' the fair share so he asked me about this.

I'm really sorry I ever posted this here, I had NO idea I would create this much drama, I apologize.

Jasondt2001 · 01-06-2009, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rgsgww

This is not an electrician defending his rates, he is giving the law.

This is a diy website for people doing work on their OWN property.

We are not going to be responsible when you get caught.

I never asked you to be responsible, if you can't help so be it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diamondblack

Jason, put the meter in the house near the primary panel. I believe that if the rental property cannot be worked on by anyone other than licensed electrician, you will still be within the confines of the law if you do not touch the panel in the mobile. All you are doing is putting a meter on the feed to the mobile.
Not trying to advocate breaking any laws, and definitely I support adhering to all codes, even the ones that seem stupid. They are there for a reason, even if no one quite knows what that reason is. Also, if you stick to code, then you can invite inspection of the finished project.
As for the on demand water heater question, just wired it the way the installation instructions stated. The wiring was H-H-N-G for all three runs.
Seems like overkill, but when it comes to wire size, I am a firm believer in bigger is better.

That's exactly what I was thinking also, I'm going to put it right underneath his existing panel and label it for PG&E so they won't get confused as to what it is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by theatretch85

I think CowboyAndy couldn't be more right here. It is not the homeowner doing the work its a friend, in the event something goes wrong and his house burns down, you would be liable.

Not to mention the strange feeling I got while reading the first couple posts by the OP; strikes me as someone who maybe shouldn't be doing this work themselves even if they were the homeowner.

Thank you for your insight in the first paragraph, you're absolutely right. That's the reason I'm here, to double check.

As for the second, sorry I disappointed you... If I had a local electrician that English I'd VOLUNTEER in trade for experience.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stubbie

There is more to this than just installing a sub-metering device. I am assuming since he already has tenants that a previous classification inspection of the the trailer/mobile home has been completed. Thereby allowing rental of the mobile home. If not I wouldn't go near this with a 10 foot pole... so to speak.

BTW fyi ..... 50 amps dp breaker is not 25 amps per leg...

So assuming again your going to do this...the metering device needs approval by the power company. They usually have a list of UL approved sub-meters provided they will allow sub-metering. The county then requires billing information be provided for the tenants on approved Public utility commission forms.

The link provided by Andrew is not acceptable by any Utility....those things are junk. You will also notice they do not have UL approval which will take them off any utilities list.

Assuming again that all applicable inspections of this rental property have been completed... then after you get the sub-meter we can consider helping with the installation. This is a DIY site however some things are not DIY, and I don't mean that you cannot correctly wire and install the sub-meter. You do have inherent risks and liabilities you should consider no matter how small....sometimes small risks turn into big nightmares.

Diamondback....for what it is worth I believe you are mistaken about needing neutral(s) on that Bosch tankless heater. There would be no reason to have a 3 neutrals for a 240 volt heater . Also a #10 awg copper will not support a typical range. So hopefully no one will plug a range into it. They would of course have to change the receptacle to do so.

Thanks for your help! I honest to goodness have asked and searched and asked... I just assumed it was 25 per side... See - I assumed and look what happened.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rgsgww

Reminds me when some genius put a 30 amp double pole in for a 15 amp mwbc at this one house. Since I'm not very old they thought that I "think I am smart".

Well let's hope I don't go that route, huh?

Quote:

Originally Posted by zpm

Try www.ezmeter.com. $181 for a basic Calif approved submeter with 100A solid core CT's. But here's the rub, in California your friend can't normally charge his renter for electricity based on usage, square footage, or anything meaningful. I would bump the rent by some fixed value to cover the estimated usage and tell the renter that electric is included in the rent. At the same time I would install a submeter at the house panel (this CYA because the work in being done at the house and not at the rental). After a year, the actual usage can be used as a factor in determinig an annual rent increase. I don't see any problem in the owner knowing the actual usage and using that information as one of many factors in determining a fixed rent increase. Your friend shouldn't elaborate to the renter on the reason for the increases, whether it be electric, property taxes, or otherwise. Remember that renters have more rights than owners.

If it was going to be anything other than his family - I'd look into the route that was linked. Thank you!!
I read through your post and learned alot, thank you for your time and expertise, if this comes into a 'legal' tennant type situation I'm not playing with it

gp_wa · 01-06-2009, 07:40 PM

Forgot to mention... You can get a meter socket box for those utility meters at most hardware stores. The line side is on top, load on bottom, so in other words the conductors from the main panel would go in the top, and the feeder to the sub out the bottom. Hook the two hots to the side lugs, and the grounds go in the center (which grounds the box itself). If you're running a four-wire feed to the sub, splice the neutral yourself inside the meter box.

Try not to shock yourself and don't tell anyone.

Jasondt2001 · 01-06-2009, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gp_wa

Forgot to mention... You can get a meter socket box for those utility meters at most hardware stores. The line side is on top, load on bottom, so in other words the conductors from the main panel would go in the top, and the feeder to the sub out the bottom. Hook the two hots to the side lugs, and the grounds go in the center (which grounds the box itself). If you're running a four-wire feed to the sub, splice the neutral yourself inside the meter box.

Try not to shock yourself and don't tell anyone.

:th umbsup:

Oh my gosh, thank you SOOOOOOO MUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's exactly what i needed to know, Seriously, thank you, thank you, thank you

If i can ever return the favor, please, don't be shy... !!

Sparky8370 · 01-06-2009, 09:27 PM

If it makes you feel any better, all the arrogant cocky guys I've ever met through work really suck at their job.
You guys could just warn him of the dangers he's facing, and advise him to use an electrician if you feel that's what's appropriate. There is nothing hard about our job, certainly not hard enough to act like it's rocket science. I always get a kick out of people who act like that. It's just simply something that someone else doesn't know how to do. I'm sure there are many things you guys don't know how to do.
I would get an emon demon or some other kind of sub metering equipment that has ct's (current transformers) they just go around the hot wires that go out to the mobile home and measure the current being used. This is the easiest option. If you decide to go with the double meter socket you will have to call an electrician. The utility gets awful pissy if you climb up there and disconnect their wires. Although many of us just "swing" the old meter socket out of the way, then take the wires that came off the load off that meter and wire them into the line of the new meter socket, install jumpers in the new meter socket, and then once everything is done and covered, install the old meter back into the old meter socket. This will only work if you are working with a utility that doesn't require you to run a new drop. Here PSNH will run the new drop, but most of the other utilities require you to run it yourself.

As for the outrageously priced dryer circuit, I would have done the same thing if:
1) I didn't want the job.
2) The customer seemed like a real pain in the ass, but that just reverts to number 1 again.

Stubbie · 01-06-2009, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gp_wa

Forgot to mention... You can get a meter socket box for those utility meters at most hardware stores. The line side is on top, load on bottom, so in other words the conductors from the main panel would go in the top, and the feeder to the sub out the bottom. Hook the two hots to the side lugs, and the grounds go in the center (which grounds the box itself). If you're running a four-wire feed to the sub, splice the neutral yourself inside the meter box.

Try not to shock yourself and don't tell anyone.

I wouldn't use a service meter to sub-meter but if Jason does he needs to understand why your telling him to splice the neutral of the 4 wire feeder and not use the factory supplied lugs inside the meter can. His wire size must also be large enough for the lugs to accept. Usually the lugs will take a minimum #6.

gp_wa · 01-06-2009, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sparky8370

If you decide to go with the double meter socket you will have to call an electrician. The utility gets awful pissy if you climb up there and disconnect their wires.

The circuit in question is a branch circuit from the main service panel in the house... There should be no such issue.

gp_wa · 01-06-2009, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stubbie

I wouldn't use a service meter to sub-meter but if Jason does he needs to understand why your telling him to splice the neutral of the 4 wire feeder and not use the factory supplied lugs inside the meter can.

Ground/neutral isolation on all (or is it most?) circuits beyond the service panel. NEC says good, we do

Why not a service meter?

InPhase277 · 01-06-2009, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sparky8370

There is nothing hard about our job, certainly not hard enough to act like it's rocket science. I always get a kick out of people who act like that. It's just simply something that someone else doesn't know how to do. I'm sure there are many things you guys don't know how to do.

No it isn't back breaking labor all the time, if that's what you mean by "hard". But there are a whole bunch of little things that electricians know that lay people don't. And these can be the difference between a safe install and a dangerous clusterf***. Lay people think that just because it works it's all good.

This is electricity we're talking about. Just like rocket science, people get killed when it goes wrong. How many people get killed when plumbing goes wrong? Or trim carpentry? Not many, I'll bet.

Stubbie · 01-06-2009, 10:11 PM

Only because I don't believe he would have understood to not bond neutral and ground inside the meter can. It just seems a little goofy to me to use it when a ct sub-metering device is much easier but it will cost him more. The other thing that bothers me here is that it is obvious to me that no one knows he will have tenants living in the mobile/home trailer and it will be utilized as a dwelling...ie...permanent residence. I have to believe that eventually the POCO or local codes folks are going to question things. As for the sub-metering device thats really not a big deal one way or the other. But he still needs to make sure that appropriate people are aware of his intentions to rent the trailer. If he uses the meter to actually bill with he has to use public utility commission guide lines in doing so and have poco approval. If he uses it to just justify what he charges for curiousity sake then probably should just keep this whole thing to himself. But I'm betting my donuts that as soon as the poco sees that meter they are going to get real curious.

01-06-2009, 03:51 PM	#32
Stubbie UAW SKILLED TRADES Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Kansas Posts: 4,584	Electrical SubMeter Wiring Help - Please. I don't think high rates has anything to do with diy. I think any rate is high for some people. They simply don't want to pay for something they assume they can do themselves. I've never met an electrician in my life that would charge 1500 bucks for the branch circuit previously mentioned. Unless their are snakes in the crawl space, or bees, or big spiders. As for myself I will work in any crawl space that is not flooded or overly muddy but that is because I get to choose... I work for myself these days. When I was down in NO we went in a lot of crawl spaces. I remember a lineman hollering down at me from the access if I needed any help. I told him yeah another guy would be helpful as I had a couple gators cornered....he said he would go find someone. I now have an estimate calculator with preset gator multipliers .... For example the prementioned branch circuit ran 40 feet in a 3 foot crawl space with 2 gators would be $1215.00. So I would say 1500 bucks is reasonable considering everyones tollerances in crawl spaces and the critters envolved. Inphase277 probably does a circuit like that much cheaper but I work alone and he uses a helper or in other words a gator distractor. Last I heard he was on his 5th helper due to attrition. __________________ " One nice thing about the NEC articles ... you have lots of choices" Stubbie

01-06-2009, 05:35 PM	#34
gp_wa DIY Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 162	Electrical SubMeter Wiring Help - Please. I've posted this a couple time in other threads... Why not use what the utilities use? And cheap. http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trk...All-Categories Example: http://cgi.ebay.com/Sangamo-watt-hou...3%3A1\|294%3A50 I'd like to hear a little more discussion about the legality of sub metering. Why on Earth would that be illegal, or not allowed by the utility?

01-06-2009, 07:40 PM	#38
gp_wa DIY Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 162	Electrical SubMeter Wiring Help - Please. Forgot to mention... You can get a meter socket box for those utility meters at most hardware stores. The line side is on top, load on bottom, so in other words the conductors from the main panel would go in the top, and the feeder to the sub out the bottom. Hook the two hots to the side lugs, and the grounds go in the center (which grounds the box itself). If you're running a four-wire feed to the sub, splice the neutral yourself inside the meter box. Try not to shock yourself and don't tell anyone.

01-06-2009, 09:27 PM	#40
Sparky8370 Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 45	Electrical SubMeter Wiring Help - Please. If it makes you feel any better, all the arrogant cocky guys I've ever met through work really suck at their job. You guys could just warn him of the dangers he's facing, and advise him to use an electrician if you feel that's what's appropriate. There is nothing hard about our job, certainly not hard enough to act like it's rocket science. I always get a kick out of people who act like that. It's just simply something that someone else doesn't know how to do. I'm sure there are many things you guys don't know how to do. I would get an emon demon or some other kind of sub metering equipment that has ct's (current transformers) they just go around the hot wires that go out to the mobile home and measure the current being used. This is the easiest option. If you decide to go with the double meter socket you will have to call an electrician. The utility gets awful pissy if you climb up there and disconnect their wires. Although many of us just "swing" the old meter socket out of the way, then take the wires that came off the load off that meter and wire them into the line of the new meter socket, install jumpers in the new meter socket, and then once everything is done and covered, install the old meter back into the old meter socket. This will only work if you are working with a utility that doesn't require you to run a new drop. Here PSNH will run the new drop, but most of the other utilities require you to run it yourself. As for the outrageously priced dryer circuit, I would have done the same thing if: 1) I didn't want the job. 2) The customer seemed like a real pain in the ass, but that just reverts to number 1 again.

01-06-2009, 10:11 PM	#45
Stubbie UAW SKILLED TRADES Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Kansas Posts: 4,584	Electrical SubMeter Wiring Help - Please. Only because I don't believe he would have understood to not bond neutral and ground inside the meter can. It just seems a little goofy to me to use it when a ct sub-metering device is much easier but it will cost him more. The other thing that bothers me here is that it is obvious to me that no one knows he will have tenants living in the mobile/home trailer and it will be utilized as a dwelling...ie...permanent residence. I have to believe that eventually the POCO or local codes folks are going to question things. As for the sub-metering device thats really not a big deal one way or the other. But he still needs to make sure that appropriate people are aware of his intentions to rent the trailer. If he uses the meter to actually bill with he has to use public utility commission guide lines in doing so and have poco approval. If he uses it to just justify what he charges for curiousity sake then probably should just keep this whole thing to himself. But I'm betting my donuts that as soon as the poco sees that meter they are going to get real curious. __________________ " One nice thing about the NEC articles ... you have lots of choices" Stubbie

Electrical SubMeter Wiring Help - Please.