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Old 01-05-2009, 09:29 PM   #16
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Electrical SubMeter Wiring Help - Please.


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Originally Posted by Jasondt2001 View Post
I just read your edit - Thank you for the link.

I think I may have come across wrong, not intentionally of course.
Thanks for the link, I read through it.

I am in NO way acting as a contractor for profit. I've done all the work for him as the guy's my best friend. I've never received any type of payment except maybe for lunch on the day I'm there.
He's NOT being charged for this or any other service I've performed as of late or in the future.
This is honestly a friend trying to help a friend. Nothing more.

OKay, but.... its still illegal, your friend has to play by the rules, nothing frosts us hard working people then the situation your involved in, I have no problems helping someone that wants to do a DIY project at their own residence. But your in a differenct ball game on this one.

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Old 01-06-2009, 09:50 AM   #17
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Electrical SubMeter Wiring Help - Please.


Chris75 sounds like another example of an electrician trying to defend their ridiculous rates. Many people cannot afford to hire a licensed electrician because of the outlandish charges. Most wiring can be done safely and to code by people who have a little information at their disposal. Hence, sites like this one. Furthermore, as the homeowner, he is entitled to make alterations without a licensed electrician, and have a friend help him. Done it myself many a time. Homeowner pulls the permit, I help them, they tell the inspector they did it. Also, I have seen some extremely ugly work done by master and journeymen electricians, and have fixed some dangerous ones. Seems like being licensed is more about paying the fees rather than being qualified to do the work.
Last quote I saw from a licensed electrician was $1500.00 to put in a 20 AMP
220v dryer outlet. 40' directly across a clear crawl space, plenty of room in the service panel for a new breaker. Took me an hour and a half, start to finish, with $100 worth of materials.
Diagram looks reasonable, but where are you going to get the meter?
Andrew's post seems like a decent place to start.
Kill the 50 amp breakers, feed the wire out of the sub panel at the mobile home and into the meter box,(which I would mount near the sub panel)
New wire from meter to sub panel, and you're done. Other option would be to put the meter near the main house panel. Since you will need to buy a meter, make sure you follow the manufacturers installation instructions.
Power to the people!!
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Old 01-06-2009, 10:28 AM   #18
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Electrical SubMeter Wiring Help - Please.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Diamondblack View Post
Chris75 sounds like another example of an electrician trying to defend their ridiculous rates. Many people cannot afford to hire a licensed electrician because of the outlandish charges. Most wiring can be done safely and to code by people who have a little information at their disposal. Hence, sites like this one. Furthermore, as the homeowner, he is entitled to make alterations without a licensed electrician, and have a friend help him. Done it myself many a time. Homeowner pulls the permit, I help them, they tell the inspector they did it. Also, I have seen some extremely ugly work done by master and journeymen electricians, and have fixed some dangerous ones. Seems like being licensed is more about paying the fees rather than being qualified to do the work.
Last quote I saw from a licensed electrician was $1500.00 to put in a 20 AMP
220v dryer outlet. 40' directly across a clear crawl space, plenty of room in the service panel for a new breaker. Took me an hour and a half, start to finish, with $100 worth of materials.
Diagram looks reasonable, but where are you going to get the meter?
Andrew's post seems like a decent place to start.
Kill the 50 amp breakers, feed the wire out of the sub panel at the mobile home and into the meter box,(which I would mount near the sub panel)
New wire from meter to sub panel, and you're done. Other option would be to put the meter near the main house panel. Since you will need to buy a meter, make sure you follow the manufacturers installation instructions.
Power to the people!!
You put in a 20A 220V circuit for a dryer? And, some places a homeowner can't pull a permit for electrical work.
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Old 01-06-2009, 10:45 AM   #19
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Electrical SubMeter Wiring Help - Please.


Yep, Swedish apartment dryer. Installation instructions called for a 20amp circuit. Being that it was installed in a kitchen, in a spot where one would typically have an electric range, I used #10 copper wire. Try to protect the next person who sees a 220 dryer outlet and just assumes it must be suitable for a range based on its location. *Always check the size of the wire before increasing the amperage of the breaker* toasters should be on the counter, not in your walls
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Old 01-06-2009, 10:51 AM   #20
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Boy, sure wouldn't want to live where the homeowner can't do the work.
I am only familiar with Colorado and Connecticut regulations, as those are the only states where I own property.
I just installed a Bosch on-demand water heater, and would have gotten killed by an electricians bill for that one. 3 individual runs of #6 copper, 3 conductor plus ground, run off 3 40amp breakers.
Needed to install 3 double breakers to make room.
Just the wire cost from an electrician would have cost more than the unit,
let alone the labor cost.
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Old 01-06-2009, 11:12 AM   #21
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You may want to check California laws.
This is not a homeowner doing work on his own house.
Work is being performed on a rental unit, which may require a licensed electrician to do the work.
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Old 01-06-2009, 11:19 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Diamondblack View Post
Boy, sure wouldn't want to live where the homeowner can't do the work.
I am only familiar with Colorado and Connecticut regulations, as those are the only states where I own property.
I just installed a Bosch on-demand water heater, and would have gotten killed by an electricians bill for that one. 3 individual runs of #6 copper, 3 conductor plus ground, run off 3 40amp breakers.
Needed to install 3 double breakers to make room.
Just the wire cost from an electrician would have cost more than the unit,
let alone the labor cost.
How many total conductors? Why would each breaker need 3+G?
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Old 01-06-2009, 11:32 AM   #23
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Electrical SubMeter Wiring Help - Please.


This is not an electrician defending his rates, he is giving the law.

This is a diy website for people doing work on their OWN property.

We are not going to be responsible when you get caught.
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Old 01-06-2009, 11:58 AM   #24
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Jason and diamond, most states laws are the same: contractors need a license, homeowners can do their OWN work on single family residences they live in. Thats it.

I am an avid DIY'er. I have been on this site for a while. Please, heed this advice: DO NOT ADVOCATE ILLEAGAL WORK HERE.

Jason, Im sure your intentions are good. BUT it is NOT YOUR HOUSE, and if something goes awry, who's going to get sued? You. Also, your buddy cannot leagally work on his rental property, period.

I am sure you are going to do this no matter what we tell you, and that's fine. But please don't discuss it here where other diy'ers will come along and read it and try it themselves.
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Old 01-06-2009, 12:09 PM   #25
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Jason, put the meter in the house near the primary panel. I believe that if the rental property cannot be worked on by anyone other than licensed electrician, you will still be within the confines of the law if you do not touch the panel in the mobile. All you are doing is putting a meter on the feed to the mobile.
Not trying to advocate breaking any laws, and definitely I support adhering to all codes, even the ones that seem stupid. They are there for a reason, even if no one quite knows what that reason is. Also, if you stick to code, then you can invite inspection of the finished project.
As for the on demand water heater question, just wired it the way the installation instructions stated. The wiring was H-H-N-G for all three runs.
Seems like overkill, but when it comes to wire size, I am a firm believer in bigger is better.
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Old 01-06-2009, 12:34 PM   #26
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Electrical SubMeter Wiring Help - Please.


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Jason, put the meter in the house near the primary panel. I believe that if the rental property cannot be worked on by anyone other than licensed electrician, you will still be within the confines of the law if you do not touch the panel in the mobile. All you are doing is putting a meter on the feed to the mobile.
Not trying to advocate breaking any laws, and definitely I support adhering to all codes, even the ones that seem stupid. They are there for a reason, even if no one quite knows what that reason is. Also, if you stick to code, then you can invite inspection of the finished project.
As for the on demand water heater question, just wired it the way the installation instructions stated. The wiring was H-H-N-G for all three runs.
Seems like overkill, but when it comes to wire size, I am a firm believer in bigger is better.
OK. Just haven't seen any water heaters that have needed a neutral run to them.
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Old 01-06-2009, 01:03 PM   #27
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Electrical SubMeter Wiring Help - Please.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CowboyAndy View Post
Jason and diamond, most states laws are the same: contractors need a license, homeowners can do their OWN work on single family residences they live in. Thats it.

I am an avid DIY'er. I have been on this site for a while. Please, heed this advice: DO NOT ADVOCATE ILLEAGAL WORK HERE.

Jason, Im sure your intentions are good. BUT it is NOT YOUR HOUSE, and if something goes awry, who's going to get sued? You. Also, your buddy cannot leagally work on his rental property, period.

I am sure you are going to do this no matter what we tell you, and that's fine. But please don't discuss it here where other diy'ers will come along and read it and try it themselves.
I think CowboyAndy couldn't be more right here. It is not the homeowner doing the work its a friend, in the event something goes wrong and his house burns down, you would be liable.

Not to mention the strange feeling I got while reading the first couple posts by the OP; strikes me as someone who maybe shouldn't be doing this work themselves even if they were the homeowner.
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Old 01-06-2009, 01:10 PM   #28
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Electrical SubMeter Wiring Help - Please.


There is more to this than just installing a sub-metering device. I am assuming since he already has tenants that a previous classification inspection of the the trailer/mobile home has been completed. Thereby allowing rental of the mobile home. If not I wouldn't go near this with a 10 foot pole... so to speak.

BTW fyi ..... 50 amps dp breaker is not 25 amps per leg...

So assuming again your going to do this...the metering device needs approval by the power company. They usually have a list of UL approved sub-meters provided they will allow sub-metering. The county then requires billing information be provided for the tenants on approved Public utility commission forms.

The link provided by Andrew is not acceptable by any Utility....those things are junk. You will also notice they do not have UL approval which will take them off any utilities list.

Assuming again that all applicable inspections of this rental property have been completed... then after you get the sub-meter we can consider helping with the installation. This is a DIY site however some things are not DIY, and I don't mean that you cannot correctly wire and install the sub-meter. You do have inherent risks and liabilities you should consider no matter how small....sometimes small risks turn into big nightmares.

Diamondback....for what it is worth I believe you are mistaken about needing neutral(s) on that Bosch tankless heater. There would be no reason to have a 3 neutrals for a 240 volt heater . Also a #10 awg copper will not support a typical range. So hopefully no one will plug a range into it. They would of course have to change the receptacle to do so.
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Old 01-06-2009, 01:10 PM   #29
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Try www.ezmeter.com. $181 for a basic Calif approved submeter with 100A solid core CT's. But here's the rub, in California your friend can't normally charge his renter for electricity based on usage, square footage, or anything meaningful. I would bump the rent by some fixed value to cover the estimated usage and tell the renter that electric is included in the rent. At the same time I would install a submeter at the house panel (this CYA because the work in being done at the house and not at the rental). After a year, the actual usage can be used as a factor in determinig an annual rent increase. I don't see any problem in the owner knowing the actual usage and using that information as one of many factors in determining a fixed rent increase. Your friend shouldn't elaborate to the renter on the reason for the increases, whether it be electric, property taxes, or otherwise. Remember that renters have more rights than owners.
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Old 01-06-2009, 01:23 PM   #30
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BTW fyi ..... 50 amps dp breaker is not 25 amps per leg...

Reminds me when some genius put a 30 amp double pole in for a 15 amp mwbc at this one house. Since I'm not very old they thought that I "think I am smart".

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