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electrical question

3K views 24 replies 9 participants last post by  jbfan 
#1 ·
I have an old main panel that has bx wires attached. There is only 1 bonding strip. I saw that there is one romex cable in the box and that they connected the bare copper to the neutral bonding strip. Is that allowed?

I am thinking of adding another romex wire to replace something I think is dangerous. They have two circuits #8 and #10 running on one bx wire. They are using the red to supply power for #8 and the black for #10. I think this is probably an issue. I plan to deactivate the red wire on #8 and put a new romex cable. If this isn't an issue then I will just leave the existing circuitry alone, but just for my our knowledge can the neutral bonding strip have bare copper and if so is there a certain way to do this? IE the white and neutral should be next to each other? And yes I know I need a new panel. I will get one within the year..

I want to convert to 200 amp service and I need to replace the fraying wires from the outside and change all my wires to 12 guage.
 
#2 ·
Neutral and ground can only be common at the service disconnect. If you have no other disconnect between the meter and the panel then depending on local code it may be fine. It would be here but I don't know your code.
 
#3 ·
They are using the red to supply power for #8 and the black for #10.
You have that backwards, breaker #8 is supplying power for the red wire and #10 for the black. If the two are on the same leg, it would be an issue. If they are on opposite legs, it probably isn't.

Any idea what circuits #8 and #10 are powering ?

A picture would be worth 1,000 words.
 
#4 ·
I'll have to give a pic later. Not sure what electrical disconnect is. I have a wire from outside going to inside to the main. There is no sub panel.

As for the red feeding black, it isn't. The circuits are independent. They power two rooms. Turn off either one does not affect the other...the wire is 14 3. They should have run another wire in my opinion
 
#7 ·
I have an old main panel that has bx wires attached. There is only 1 bonding strip. I saw that there is one romex cable in the box and that they connected the bare copper to the neutral bonding strip. Is that allowed?

I am thinking of adding another romex wire to replace something I think is dangerous. They have two circuits #8 and #10 running on one bx wire. They are using the red to supply power for #8 and the black for #10. I think this is probably an issue. I plan to deactivate the red wire on #8 and put a new romex cable. If this isn't an issue then I will just leave the existing circuitry alone, but just for my our knowledge can the neutral bonding strip have bare copper and if so is there a certain way to do this? IE the white and neutral should be next to each other? And yes I know I need a new panel. I will get one within the year..

I want to convert to 200 amp service and I need to replace the fraying wires from the outside and change all my wires to 12 guage.

If it is an older panel ?
then using the neutral to connect the earth wire
could have been an accepted practise then.

They prefer to do it differently now days
but I would leave it.
Maybe if you replace or update your panel
then it would be wise to change it.
I think the grandfather thing applies.
leave it be for now !
:thumbsup:
 
#9 · (Edited)
Ok yes bonding strip is not the right word. There is a neutral bar only, no grounding bar. The BX cables have the bonding strip right?

Ok so since there are BX cables, there is no bare ground wire- the box becomes grounded from my understanding. Now I know that further down the line there is a bar that goes to the galvanized pipe for water (not great, but that is how they did it)

I have pictures showing what I am talking about now. And no I don't believe what I have is a branching wire- unless a branching wire starts at the circuit breaker? I thought the branching circuit was always a run from the box and then a continued run in the house using the red.

You can't tell by the picture, but one of the BX wires (red) from a single cable coming in goes to breaker number #8 (20 amp) and the black one from that same wire goes to #10 (15 amp). I know immediately this is an issue because it is 14 gauge wire.

This one wire routes it way to a lighting fixture upstairs. The red wire feeds the power to a room on the other side of the house, and the black supplies wire to two other rooms. The neutral wire is obviously shared on both circuits. I don't think that sounds like a great idea because that could mean if I draw up big loads in all rooms then the neutral will have to return high amps which to me sounds like there could be a fire...not to mention the incorrect 20 amp breaker.

As you can see from the picture they also put a romex wire in and I was unsure if they were allowed to put the earth ground there. I asked to see when permits were taken out for this house and they said they have no records. I do not think that any work they did is correct. I know a lot of work they did is not correct looking at how they left the insulation from romex on when it entered the box..it should have been stripped and also with the bx connections they used the romex connectors to tie it into a metal box here and there.
 

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#10 · (Edited)
The single BX cable that has the 4 wires that I am talkin about is on the far top left corner.

These wires go to the lower dipole breakers on he bottom left which have green and white stickers. The white one is the 20 amp the green one is 15 amp.

The white stickered breaker (#8 and #9) has the red wire from that single BX wire I am talking about. The green sticker (#10 and #11) has the black wire from the BX wire I am talking about.
 

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#13 · (Edited)
The BX cables have the bonding strip right?


true "BX" does not have a bonding strip. In fact, true BX was not even an actual type of cable per the code. It was a manufacturers designation. It was an AC cable and now AC cable does have a bond strip.

and in fact, BX didn't incorporate a ground and that is one reason it was such a problem. The metal sheath became a de facto ground but since it wasn't rated as a ground it has been known to cause some problems.


of course AC cable is not to be confused with the externally identical MC cable which doesn't have a bond strip in it (except for this new crap they are calling HC (by the manufacturer)).
 
#15 ·
so I am gathering that nothing is wrong? You can keep the bare ground into the neutral bar and you can use 1 bx cable that is 14-3 to power two separate circuits (circuit breaker #8 (red wire) and #10 (black wire)while sharing one neutral?

In the very least I would think that the 20 amp circuit breaker on #8 is wrong.
 
#16 ·
so I am gathering that nothing is wrong? You can keep the bare ground into the neutral bar and you can use 1 bx cable that is 14-3 to power two separate circuits (circuit breaker #8 (red wire) and #10 (black wire)while sharing one neutral?

In the very least I would think that the 20 amp circuit breaker on #8 is wrong.
If #8 wire is a 14G... yes... it is wrong
 
#18 ·
And yes I know I need a new panel. I will get one within the year..

I want to convert to 200 amp service and I need to replace the fraying wires from the outside and change all my wires to 12 guage.

If this offends I apologize in advance but I would be remiss if I did not say it. Sometimes a little bit of advice and knowledge can lead to major mistakes.

Please ask a lot more questions and get some expert advice before changing any wires. I once saw a panel where the owner wanted 20 amp breakers so they added a 2-3' section of 12G to the end of the 14G wire runs and thought this would be fine since it was the right wire attached to the breaker.
 
#19 ·
If this offends I apologize in advance but I would be remiss if I did not say it. Sometimes a little bit of advice and knowledge can lead to major mistakes.

Please ask a lot more questions and get some expert advice before changing any wires. I once saw a panel where the owner wanted 20 amp breakers so they added a 2-3' section of 12G to the end of the 14G wire runs and thought this would be fine since it was the right wire attached to the breaker.
Ditto to Colbyt....:thumbsup:

I think we all have seen some amazing mistakes with HO or poor servicemen electrical....

and the real problem is that they will work/function (for a while) and under certain conditions..... but are extreemly dangerous under varying conditions.

Furthermore, they are often extreemly difficult or costly to repair... as they are often buried in construction.
 
#21 ·
Another thing I don't understand is the need for handles. If #8 which is on the far left trips, why does #10 have to be tied to it? I would think if #8 trips then the live #10 is now operating as a single circuit? So why would we need to force the other circuit to trip?
I can't tell from looking at just the picture but you may have a Edison circuit. That is where 2 hots are serviced by one neutral. If only one is switched off the other can still send juice back over the neutral and shock the crap out of you. Forced both circuits off at the same time is a safety issue. Most sparkys do it with a double pole breaker but cheap homeowners often use 2 single breakers.
 
#22 ·
This is the BX wire that goes to breaket #8 and #10. You can see the common wire (neutral) is veering to the right and it goes to the neutral panel...the neutral panel as has a ground on it from a romex wire that goes to the box.

I was reading that as long as you have different phases you can share the neutral. I am not sure what phases means..I guess this is another word for leg?
 

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#23 ·
As long as the "hots" are on opposing legs there will never be more current on the neutral than what the breaker is rated for. In fact, if both "hots" are being used, the returning current on the neutral will actually be less than the current on either hot. It will be the difference between the two (e.g. 10 amp on red 8 amps on black results with 2 amps return current) since the current on the two hots have opposing sine waves and the current cancels rather than adds to the other hot.
 
#24 ·
That is what I thought I read on another forum, but you explained the theory. Not sure why the sine waves are opposite, but hey if you say it is proper, I am all up for less work! So then this means handles are not needed.

On another note does phase mean the same as leg? So the tandem circuits #8 and #9 are on one breaker and #10 and #11 are on another breaker.

Since they are on 2 different breakers this means that they are on 2 different phases?

If they had put the red and the black from one cable on the tandem circuit breaker #8 and #9, this would be an issue I suppose. I am guessing the sine waves would not be opposite and would be additive rather than the difference?
 
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