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Old 11-29-2008, 08:56 AM   #1
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Electrical Panel "cut-in" question


Hi people!

I have a 100 amp Siemens Electrical panel I have installed in a 24' X 24' garage I built outside my home.

My brother has been working on the electrical for me and doing a pretty darn good job.

However, I had one question I'd like to get an opinion on regarding the panel "cut-in" as he is completing the hook-ups:

The panel has two vertical silver colored bars on each side of the breaker bar.

My brother hooked up the neutral wires on the left side and the ground wires on the right side vertical bars.

After trimming the neutrals and grounds and hooking them up as just described, he noticed that the panel instructions stated that the ground wires should be hooked to the left vertical silver bar and the neutrals to the right side vertical silver bar - - which is the reverse of what he did.

HOWEVER - both the left side and right side vertical silver bars are connected together by a horizontal metal bar.... and my brother thought that it probably didn't make any difference that he had the side connections reversed from what the instructions recommended...because they were hooked together by a common horizontal bar anyway.

He said that it basically meant that they are one-in-the-same bar since they were tied together by this horizontal bar...and it wouldn't make any difference in their functionality or safety.

Here's a picture.... are we good as is??? Just double-checking...and thanks for your interest and comments to this post.
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Electrical Panel "cut-in" question-panel.jpg  

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Old 11-29-2008, 09:13 AM   #2
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Electrical Panel "cut-in" question


Nope, not OK. The reason being that you have a 4-wire feed, which means that the grounds and neutrals must be separated. You must remove the bar that connects the two sides, and remove the green screw next to the incoming neutral and place it on the left side bar in the top empty hole. You don't have that many grounds and neutrals and it looks like you probably have enough slack to just swap sides.

You may be able to just move the incoming feeds to opposite sides, but I would just re-wire the branch grounds and neutrals.

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Old 11-29-2008, 10:26 AM   #3
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Electrical Panel "cut-in" question


I'm not so sure that the box bonding (green) screw is so easily installed on the left side. If may be easier to just install a bonding jumper to a lug fasted to the enclosure.

That horizontal jumper bar will need to be removed.

One final question: Where does that bare wire go? Is it run all the way with the other feeder conductors in the conduit?

Did you install a ground rod at the garage? Where is the (bare) wire for that?
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Old 11-29-2008, 10:40 AM   #4
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Electrical Panel "cut-in" question


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Originally Posted by kbsparky View Post
I'm not so sure that the box bonding (green) screw is so easily installed on the left side. If may be easier to just install a bonding jumper to a lug fasted to the enclosure.
Maybe, but it seems likely that the manufacturer would have included a means to bond that can to ground in case a 4-wire feeder was installed. I do believe it is the top hole on the left.



Quote:
Did you install a ground rod at the garage? Where is the (bare) wire for that?
Good question. Unless this garage is attached to your house, you will need to install a grounding electrode(s).

EDIT: I guess that big wire with white tape on it wasn't a good enough clue as to which side was neutral?

Last edited by InPhase277; 11-29-2008 at 10:43 AM.
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Old 11-29-2008, 11:20 AM   #5
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Electrical Panel "cut-in" question


Thanks guys - I'll pass this along to my brother...

The ground wire you ask about is for the ground rods...I'm going to install a piece of conduit to the bottom of the wall and out the garage's baseboard to the outside.... I have an 8' ground rod driven into the ground just outside the wall where the panel is...and another 8' ground rod about six fee beyond that which I will tie together. An electrician friend told me that it's now code to have two ground rods.

Thanks guys...keep an eye on this post if you don't mind as I might have a few other questions as we re-do this. THanks for your willingness to help out!!
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Old 11-29-2008, 12:25 PM   #6
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Electrical Panel "cut-in" question


Oh...also...if some of the wires are not long enough to swap sides...is it "ok" to wire nut them to a jumper to get the length I need to reach the other side?

ALSO... the "green" screw on the right side of the box, attached to the vertical bar has a plastic shaft beneath it that the screw goes through and to the box... I don't see where the left side has a plastic shaft like that??

Here is a better view:
Attached Thumbnails
Electrical Panel "cut-in" question-electrical-panel2.jpg   Electrical Panel "cut-in" question-electrical-panel3.jpg   Electrical Panel "cut-in" question-electrical-panel4.jpg  

Last edited by Todd-sta; 11-29-2008 at 12:47 PM.
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Old 11-29-2008, 08:24 PM   #7
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Electrical Panel "cut-in" question


Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd-sta View Post
Oh...also...if some of the wires are not long enough to swap sides...is it "ok" to wire nut them to a jumper to get the length I need to reach the other side?
Yes, this is acceptable. You have plenty of room in this box.
Quote:
ALSO... the "green" screw on the right side of the box, attached to the vertical bar has a plastic shaft beneath it that the screw goes through and to the box... I don't see where the left side has a plastic shaft like that...
Exactly my point. You need to make the side with the green screw for the bare ground wires, and make the other side for your neutrals. But there is the problem of your main lug.

Either move that main lug to the other side, ... OR... if that is not feasible, then you should employ the following procedure:

1) Remove the green screw.
2) Remove the jumper bar
3) Install a bonding jumper from the left bar to a lug mounted on the inside of the enclosure. You will have to drill and tap a hole and use a machine screw to attach the lug to the can. This will ensure the enclosure is solidly bonded/grounded.
4) Put all the insulated neutral conductors on the neutral side, and all the bare ground wires on the grounding side.
5) Upload a pic of your completed project so we can have a looksie
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Old 11-29-2008, 09:21 PM   #8
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Electrical Panel "cut-in" question


Quote:
Exactly my point. You need to make the side with the green screw for the bare ground wires, and make the other side for your neutrals.
Thanks for the reply kbsparky! Ok...so, I'm confused though.... the side with the green screw already has the bare ground wires...and the other side has the neutrals. My brother might know what you mean when I show him this... but can you elaborate for my education? Does this Siemens box have the green screw on the wrong side of the box? It seems odd that the box wouldn't be layed out the way it should be wired from the manufacturer...but I'm sure I'm just showing my ignorance of electrical work..LOL.

Also, as a side note... I have this box mounted between two studs...and there is a piece of plywood behind the box that I nailed to the backside of the studs...so I also screwed the box directly to the piece of plywood as well as the studs on each side. Does this pose any kind of problem for adding the "lug" and the "bonding jumper" that you mention?

I'm sending the link of this thread to my brother also for his review... so he can get a grasp of how this should be layed out...

Thanks a ton for your help...
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Old 11-29-2008, 09:53 PM   #9
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Electrical Panel "cut-in" question


Todd, did the panel come with an accessory kit? Like a little metal strap? The reason I ask is, it seems highly unlikely to me that Siemens would not supply a means to bond the can in the case of a 4-wire feed. I don't think they expect you to move the lug. I suppose they could, but I just don't think that is the case. What is the model number for the panel?
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Old 11-29-2008, 10:32 PM   #10
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Electrical Panel "cut-in" question


Quote:
... the side with the green screw already has the bare ground wires...and the other side has the neutrals....
Right. And it does seem to be backwards, when utilizing a 4-wire feeder.

There would not be another metal bonding strap, since they provided the green bonding screw.

If you can't move that large lug to the other side, then you might want to see if you can purchase an accessory lug to do the same thing, such as this one:





Or this one:



However you configure this, remember these points:

1) Grounds and neutrals need to be kept separated.
2) The box bonding has to be accomplished on the grounding side.
3) The ground rod(s) connect to the grounding strip, with the bare wires.

Edit to add: I checked the Siemens web site, and discovered that they advocate using a separate ground bar when using a 4-wire feeder, instead of separating the neutral bars. While this is acceptable to the Code, separating them as we have outlined here is also compliant.

Last edited by kbsparky; 11-29-2008 at 10:50 PM.
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Old 11-30-2008, 05:50 AM   #11
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Electrical Panel "cut-in" question


How about instaling a ground lug in the panel for the main ground and ground rod wire and a multi terminal ground strip or a couple smaller lugs (all with machine screws) to the back of the panel box, remove the bonding screw from the nuetral, and just use those 2 bars for the nuetral wires. I have never seen a panel configured like the one you show here, maybe its your area, I don't know, but all the ones we get here, even siemens (which I primarily sell) has the grounds on the enclosure and a removable bonding screw or jumper.
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Old 11-30-2008, 07:53 AM   #12
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Electrical Panel "cut-in" question


Hi InPhase - the panel did not come with an accessory kit - however - check out some of these pics I took of the sticker inside the panel door...they say something about buying a bonding bar or lug for certain applications??

One of the following pics shows the model number of this panel....hope that helps.

KB/InPhase - can you read some of the info on these stickers? Does this explain anything to you? It seems like there are accessories I might need to get to achieve what you guys are explaining to me?

Also, guys
- there are a few words missing on the first picture of a panel sticker... but it mentions something about "if you mount this box to a solid wall - - do this and do that." I have mine mounted to a piece of playwood??!!

Do these stickers help explain what I need to do??

Should I get a different panel box??

Thanks...
Attached Thumbnails
Electrical Panel "cut-in" question-electrical-panel-001-medium-.jpg   Electrical Panel "cut-in" question-electrical-panel-009-medium-.jpg   Electrical Panel "cut-in" question-electrical-panel-005-medium-.jpg   Electrical Panel "cut-in" question-electrical-panel-006-medium-.jpg   Electrical Panel "cut-in" question-electrical-panel-007-medium-.jpg  

Electrical Panel "cut-in" question-electrical-panel-008-medium-.jpg  

Last edited by Todd-sta; 11-30-2008 at 07:55 AM.
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Old 11-30-2008, 08:32 AM   #13
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Electrical Panel "cut-in" question


Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd-sta View Post
Hi InPhase - the panel did not come with an accessory kit - however - check out some of these pics I took of the sticker inside the panel door...they say something about buying a bonding bar or lug for certain applications??
That's right, I almost forgot. They want to sell you a ground bar, so go down to Home Ripoff or Lowes and look in the panels section for the right bar.

Quote:
Also, guys - there are a few words missing on the first picture of a panel sticker... but it mentions something about "if you mount this box to a solid wall - - do this and do that." I have mine mounted to a piece of playwood??!!

Do these stickers help explain what I need to do??

Should I get a different panel box??

Thanks...
It says that you need to torque the green screw before you install it on a solid wall. But, once you get the bar, you will be removing that screw, so no problem.
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Old 11-30-2008, 08:52 AM   #14
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Electrical Panel "cut-in" question


Hey InPhase/and KBSparky - anyway you guys could do a rough pencil sketch and upload them - on how this panel and it's wires should actually appear with the correct "ground bars" "bonding lugs" etc?

I'd like to get a visual on what all this means.... thanks guys!
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Old 11-30-2008, 08:54 AM   #15
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Electrical Panel "cut-in" question


Get the ECLKB1 bonding lug and you'll be able to use the left bar as the ground bar after you remove the tie strap and bonding screw on the neutral(right) bar.
http://www.murrayconnect.com/NR/rdon...D/0/ECLKB1.pdf


Last edited by jerryh3; 11-30-2008 at 08:56 AM.
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