DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum

DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum (http://www.diychatroom.com/)
-   Electrical (http://www.diychatroom.com/f18/)
-   -   Electrical Panel Bus Bars (http://www.diychatroom.com/f18/electrical-panel-bus-bars-62278/)

dave_80 01-19-2010 12:36 PM

Electrical Panel Bus Bars
 
I have a Federal Pioneer (Stab lok) 100amp main panel.
The panel has two neutral bus bars on each side but the grounding bars are 6 separate short bars located around the panel. My concern is that only one bar is directly connected to the green grounding cable. Is it possible that the panel itself acts as a conductor for the ground?

codeone 01-19-2010 12:43 PM

Yes and this is allowed for grounding conductors but not grounded (neutral) conductors!

spark plug 01-19-2010 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dave_80 (Post 385632)
I have a Federal Pioneer (Stab lok) 100amp main panel.
The panel has two neutral bus bars on each side but the grounding bars are 6 separate short bars located around the panel. My concern is that only one bar is directly connected to the green grounding cable. Is it possible that the panel itself acts as a conductor for the ground?

I don't know what the Code for Grounding Service Entrance is in Canada, buit I hope you know what the definition of "Main/Service (equipment) is, A/O Sub panel, etc. Anything past a Main switch, Including a panel is not considered Service equipment. And the NEUTRAL is NOT supposed to be GROUNDED!!

codeone 01-19-2010 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spark plug (Post 385680)
. And the NEUTRAL is NOT supposed to be GROUNDED!!

You need to go back and read Article 200 of the NEC.

The neutral as most people call it is actually a grounded circuit conductor!
It carries current most of the time. And is bonded or grounded intentionally at the service therefore called a grounded conductor.

AllanJ 01-19-2010 06:28 PM

Neutral conductors may not be connected to ground wires / box framework / conduits / other grounded objects downstream of the first main disconnect (switch or breaker).

Speedy Petey 01-19-2010 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spark plug (Post 385680)
And the NEUTRAL is NOT supposed to be GROUNDED!!

I think this is just a poor choice of words. I think he means it should not be bonded (to the grounding conductor).

spark plug 01-20-2010 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speedy Petey (Post 385838)
I think this is just a poor choice of words. I think he means it should not be bonded (to the grounding conductor).

Yes; But he missed the MAIN POINT. ("Codeone"). Which is; that, at any point after the main disconnect, the NEUTRAL may not be Bonded/Grounded. Therefore, as was stated that there is a Disconnect Switch ahead of the "Panel" it (the Panel) is not considered a MAIN panel and it MAY NOT be Bonded/Grounded;:yes::no: (The ultimate symbol of Confusion)!

codeone 01-20-2010 01:10 PM

No did not miss the main point. Most people and electricians do not understand what the GROUNDED CONDUCTOR is, They call it a neutral in the industry, however it is almost never neutral, only in multiwire circuits can it be neutral. It is a CURRENT carrying conductor that is bonded to the Ground in the main service. The NEC recognizes it and calls it a Grounded Circuit Conductor. Neutral implies that it does not carry current. If it did not carry current and shorted to the equipment grounding conductor it would not trip a breaker or blow a fuse.

codeone 01-20-2010 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speedy Petey (Post 385838)
I think this is just a poor choice of words. I think he means it should not be bonded (to the grounding conductor).

'
I think this is the most approate reply.
Sorry if I get to techenical for you. Will try to keep that in mind when replying. Still dont need miss information on a board such as this.

spark plug 01-20-2010 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by codeone (Post 386228)
No did not miss the main point. Most people and electricians do not understand what the GROUNDED CONDUCTOR is, They call it a neutral in the industry, however it is almost never neutral, only in multiwire circuits can it be neutral. It is a CURRENT carrying conductor that is bonded to the Ground in the main service. The NEC recognizes it and calls it a Grounded Circuit Conductor. Neutral implies that it does not carry current. If it did not carry current and shorted to the equipment grounding conductor it would not trip a breaker or blow a fuse.

Yes. The NEUTRAL IS a current carrying Conductor. But the essence of my point is; That ANYTHING past the FIRST DISCONNECT is NOT considered SERVICE EQUIPMENT and CAN NOT BE BONDED (as in a Subpanel. Albeit that this is your first Branch Circuit panel)! (I think)!:yes::yes:!

codeone 01-20-2010 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dave_80 (Post 385632)
but the grounding bars are 6 separate short bars located around the panel. My concern is that only one bar is directly connected to the green grounding cable. Is it possible that the panel itself acts as a conductor for the ground?

In the original posters question he was asking about the grounding bars in the panel not being interconnected, only being attached to the panel, his concern was that the panel would be a current path if there was a short to one of the equipment grounding conductors and weather this was the right way to have them hooked up.

In my first assured him that the code did allow this, but did not allow the grounded conductor (aka neutral to be hooked up that way).

I agree totally with you about bonding the grounded conductor past the service. The post I made the remarks about was a poor choice of wording in my opinion, sorry if it disturbed you. And I will try to remember to phrase things so DIY will be able to understand without complications in the future. Not my first Rodeo!:cowboy:

Stubbie 01-20-2010 02:51 PM

Quote:

but the grounding bars are 6 separate short bars located around the panel. My concern is that only one bar is directly connected to the green grounding cable.
I would like to see a pic of this ....... :) Though it is true that the metal of the panel serves as a ground fault path in that it is bonded metal. ... I have never seen 6 short grounding bars installed in a panel. It would be important that the correct mounting of those grounding bars took place ... I'm betting they were not. These are obviously non factory ground bars ... at least some of them are not...:wink:

For those interested the violation that 'codeone' is speaking about is 2008 NEC 200.2 (B)

I also think Dave might be talking about a grounding electrode conductor being connected to one of those 6 grounding bars and not an egc.

He is saying 100 amp 'main panel' whether it is service equipment or not is not determined IMO.

journeymanj 01-20-2010 02:56 PM

Dave80, I think the best advice I can offer is to have your panel replaced, you have a federal pioneer which is a federal pacific here in the US. these are widely known for causing fires, the breakers will quit working & you have no way to know when they do.fha wont put A loan on a house with these & a lot of insurers wont cover a house with one. heres a link with more info. http://inspectapedia.com/fpe/FederalPioneer.htm

Speedy Petey 01-20-2010 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by journeymanj (Post 386273)
Dave80, I think the best advice I can offer is to have your panel replaced, you have a federal pioneer which is a federal pacific here in the US. these are widely known for causing fires, the breakers will quit working & you have no way to know when they do.fha wont put A loan on a house with these & a lot of insurers wont cover a house with one. heres a link with more info. http://inspectapedia.com/fpe/FederalPioneer.htm

Then WHY is Federal PIONEER still used and installed in new construction to this day in Canada???
I thought F Pioneer was not the same thing as our old FPE. That is what my Canadian friends tell me.

journeymanj 01-20-2010 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speedy Petey (Post 386286)
Then WHY is Federal PIONEER still used and installed in new construction to this day in Canada???
I thought F Pioneer was not the same thing as our old FPE. That is what my Canadian friends tell me.

I couldnt tell you exactly, I just heard the dreaded stab lock, ive replaced dozens of these in my area & know how bad the us version is, so I searched the canadian version on the net & the sites pretty much said the older (pre 97) versions arent much better & enough is not known about the newer versions to call them safe. I know what I would do if it was in my house. ps my old house had the us version so I put in A sqare d QO


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:26 PM.