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Old 07-10-2011, 08:05 PM   #1
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Electrical confusion


So i wanted to change a few outlets in my house. When i came to one particular outlet in the kitchen and one in the dining room they both appear to be individually on their own breakers and were also both wired with 3 way switch wire. I turned off each breaker and removed the old outlets and wired the new ones exactly as the old ones were. Went down stairs to turn the breakers back on and the instant i did the main tripped. I can reset the main but only if those two breakers are off and if I try to turn them on again it just blows the main again. If someone could tell me what ive done wrong it would be most appreciated because tomorrow is monday and one of those outlets is for the coffee maker ... After originally posting i had a thought from shop class twenty years ago... because it seems to be a split plug ... is this when you break off the tabs ?... If someone could confirm or deny my suspicions it would be greatly appreciated


Last edited by boozehound; 07-10-2011 at 08:09 PM.
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Old 07-10-2011, 08:17 PM   #2
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Electrical confusion


You replaced split-wired outlets that are fed from 2 different opposing circuits.

You failed to remove the break-away tab on the hot side of the outlets, effectively causing a dead short between incoming lines. It's not unusual for the main to trip out on such a dead short condition.

Remove the offending outlets, and break away the small tab between the black and red wires, separating them from each other and try the breakers again.

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Old 07-10-2011, 08:19 PM   #3
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Thank you very much ... I did exactly that and works just fine.
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Old 07-10-2011, 08:23 PM   #4
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Electrical confusion


ummmm You replaced outlets with GFCIs that are ment for being around water, etc. for regular outlets?

http://home.howstuffworks.com/question117.htm

In WA, having regular outlets and light switches were a GFCI outlet/switch is supposed to be, is against building code.

Might want to look into it for your area. Just saying...
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Old 07-10-2011, 08:25 PM   #5
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Electrical confusion


Just out of curiosity... why would these plugs be wired this way and why would they each be on their own breakers ?
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Old 07-10-2011, 08:28 PM   #6
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Electrical confusion


The old outlets were not gfci nor are they near water. It was a neglect to break off the tabs
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Old 07-10-2011, 08:28 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by boozehound View Post
Just out of curiosity... why would these plugs be wired this way and why would they each be on their own breakers ?
So when they blow, they don't blow out your entire house.

For instance, a bathroom for example. You have a hair dryer plugged in, and it's on and it falls into the sink, you only short the outlet, and the entire house remains fine. Preventing it from blowing, and preventing any electrical fire.

I would seriously recommend installing GFCI Outlets back in where you removed them. There are reasons why they were installed in those locations initially
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Old 07-10-2011, 08:31 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by boozehound View Post
The old outlets were not gfci nor are they near water. It was a neglect to break off the tabs
having their own "breakers" is accustomed to GFCI outlets.

If Electricians went out of their way to install seperate breakers for those outlets, or those outlets had built in seperate breakers, 99 out of 100 times it is because building code required them to do it.

In my home town, and even in Job Corps, any outlet in a kitchen, bathroom, or nearby either, have to have GFCI, or built in breakers.

Talk to your city hall in regards to building code for electrical outlets in a kitchen, bathroom, or nearby said locations. You may have possibly done a very, very, very big no no....
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Old 07-10-2011, 08:43 PM   #9
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One of the outlets until a short time ago was actually in a bedroom... the wall has since been removed to make a dining room but i can see no reason for it to have ever been a gfi. I do appreciate the imput though
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Old 07-10-2011, 08:47 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigGuy01 View Post
having their own "breakers" is accustomed to GFCI outlets.
You don't understand GFCI's

If Electricians went out of their way to install seperate breakers for those outlets, or those outlets had built in seperate breakers, 99 out of 100 times it is because building code required them to do it.

In my home town, and even in Job Corps, any outlet in a kitchen, bathroom, or nearby either, have to have GFCI, or built in breakers.
Yes, if the structure wiring has to comply with code cycles that require them.

Talk to your city hall in regards to building code for electrical outlets in a kitchen, bathroom, or nearby said locations. You may have possibly done a very, very, very big no no....
Are you sure??
See items in red.....
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Old 07-10-2011, 08:47 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boozehound View Post
One of the outlets until a short time ago was actually in a bedroom... the wall has since been removed to make a dining room but i can see no reason for it to have ever been a gfi. I do appreciate the imput though
To be honest, I'd just take the 5 minutes to e-mail or call your city hall, or look up legislature on building code for electrical outlets in your area.

Even if you don't see why, if building code requires it, it's indisputable. If it's required it's required.

I'd highly recommend taking the 5 minutes to look up electrical building codes, or call the city hall for the building codes for electrical outlets.

Electricians wouldn't install complex circuits for the sake of a whim, or for the sake of personal entertainment to read online posts of a guy trying to uninstall them.

Even if you don't see a reason for it, if building code requires it, it's required. Just play it safe and look into it.
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Old 07-10-2011, 08:53 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a7ecorsair View Post
See items in red.....
Originally Posted by BigGuy01
having their own "breakers" is accustomed to GFCI outlets.
You don't understand GFCI's

If Electricians went out of their way to install seperate breakers for those outlets, or those outlets had built in seperate breakers, 99 out of 100 times it is because building code required them to do it.

In my home town, and even in Job Corps, any outlet in a kitchen, bathroom, or nearby either, have to have GFCI, or built in breakers.
Yes, if the structure wiring has to comply with code cycles that require them.

Talk to your city hall in regards to building code for electrical outlets in a kitchen, bathroom, or nearby said locations. You may have possibly done a very, very, very big no no....
Are you sure??


I understand it's a fuse in the GFCI that blows to save the rest of the circuit. That said, I sincerely doubt an electrician would go out of there way to install seperate breakers into an outlet for entertainment purposes if there wasn't a reason for them to be there.

If electrical fire, or anything occurs that causes damage to property or injury, or loss of property or death, and it's found to have been caused by bad electrical. The one who pays for it, from fines to even charges, is the person who did the electrical work.

Which is why I've recommended he speaks to whoever in his area has the information concerning building codes, to determine why those breakers were installed seperately per outlet

I do not know a single Electrician who would put in the time, nor materials to install outlet after outlet in an area of a home with seperate breakers built into them if there wasn't a reason to do it.

It consumes time and materials 9 out of 10 times are supposed to be used elsewhere.

I see no reason why an Electrician would install seperate breakers, unless it was required per building code. Even if it was a fumble for one outlet, they wouldn't fumble on several others. Which is why I strongly believe it was done per building code, which may or may not still be relevant today. Which is why the OP is encouraged to speak with a building inspector, city hall, or whoever in his country/area is responsible for having required information of building codes off hand, and who is responsible for enforcing the building codes.

Last edited by BigGuy01; 07-10-2011 at 09:00 PM.
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Old 07-10-2011, 09:43 PM   #13
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Electrical confusion


Quote:
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I understand it's a fuse in the GFCI that blows to save the rest of the circuit.
Like he said, you still do not understand GFI's.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BigGuy01 View Post
If electrical fire, or anything occurs that causes damage to property or injury, or loss of property or death, and it's found to have been caused by bad electrical. The one who pays for it, from fines to even charges, is the person who did the electrical work.
Not at all true.


Might I suggest you refrain from giving out electrical advice. It is clearly not your area of expertise.
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Old 07-10-2011, 09:43 PM   #14
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The OP is in Canada. This is a perfectly typical install there.
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Old 07-10-2011, 09:49 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
The OP is in Canada. This is a perfectly typical install there.
If it's typical install there, wouldn't that mean it's code?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
Like he said, you still do not understand GFI's.


Not at all true.


Might I suggest you refrain from giving out electrical advice. It is clearly not your area of expertise.
May not be true in your state, but in WA, anyform of improper plumbing or electrical work, or any work that does not meet building code, the person who did it, for instance such as electrical work, if fire results of bad electrical and the source is a location the OP replaced, and the OP installed it wrongly per code, he's the one who not only pays for repairs (because home owners wont cover damages if it's negligence) but pays the fines, and pays any medical bills that result from it.

If it was a licensed electrician, you can bet your tootsy the home owner and state will chase you down. Same deal if you're in the occupational capacity to provide oversight of maintenance and repairs of anything electrical in a building.

Liability is 100% put into the person who did the job. At least in WA.

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