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Old 03-04-2008, 04:00 AM   #1
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Electrical Advice Caution!!!


While we all mean well with our advice, Electrical forum advice is the most critical.
There are too many unlicensed DIY people with limited experience willing to take shortcuts and do things that are simply unsafe and/or not to code, based on general advice received over the Internet.
Unless you are absolutely certain that your advice is correct, please allow Licensed Electricians only to address the questions.
ALL PARTIES SHOULD DEFER TO THEIR BUILDING INSPECTION DEPARTMENT FOR LOCAL CODES, PERMITS AND INSPECTIONS, AS FINAL AUTHORITY.
FAILURE TO DO SO MAY RESULT IN INJURY OR DEATH, FIRE, DAMAGES NOT COVERED BY INSURANCE, ETC.
Thank you.
Mike

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Old 03-04-2008, 01:01 PM   #2
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I will second that motion.

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Old 03-04-2008, 03:50 PM   #3
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Electrical Advice Caution!!!


I agree with it also.,,


Mike can you make this sticky to stay in the top all the time ??


Also for the readers when you post the question will you please STATE your location where ya from [ only state or providinace area ] due the reason why it will really save alot of headache and confusing due the NEC and CEC codes are slightly diffrent and with the NEC there are few verison .,, most electricians will qoute with most recent code verison which it will be 08 code unless your area say so diffrent. [ right now there is 3 diffrent code verison 08, 05, 02.]

Merci, Marc
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Old 03-04-2008, 04:19 PM   #4
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Electrical Advice Caution!!!


Well said Mike.

You won't get any arguments from any of us who do this for a living. We have all seen dangerous and horrible handyman and homeowner work. Someday all electrical work will be required to be done by licensed electricians. It's just a matter of time.

In my state only licensed plumbers can screw two pieces of pipe together, but aunt Matilda can still wire up her own motel if she wants.
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Old 03-04-2008, 04:57 PM   #5
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Electrical Advice Caution!!!


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Originally Posted by jrclen View Post
Well said Mike.

You won't get any arguments from any of us who do this for a living. We have all seen dangerous and horrible handyman and homeowner work. Someday all electrical work will be required to be done by licensed electricians. It's just a matter of time.

In my state only licensed plumbers can screw two pieces of pipe together, but aunt Matilda can still wire up her own motel if she wants.
Are you saying that licensed electricians never do any horrible work?
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Old 03-04-2008, 05:17 PM   #6
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Electrical Advice Caution!!!


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Are you saying that licensed electricians never do any horrible work?
Agreed and with all due respect- why is this called a DIY Chatroom? I am not a licensed electrician but have learned enough residential (over 35 years of work) to answer some questions intelligently (those that I have experience) and with safety and caution in mind. I answer as I would be doing the work for my own home.

Certainly there are licensed professionals in all walks of life- there are also those who take advantage of situations presented to them- whether licensed or not. I have seen some questions here where the HO asks what might be something ridiculously simple to the licensed professional (and I have read some sarcastic responses) to more involved requests.
I am pleased to learn about new items on this board but also realize there can be differing opinions among the "licensed professionals" on certain topics.

Speaking realistically, no one should ever take information from the web as law-that is why there is a disclaimer at the bottom of the page...
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Last edited by handyman78; 03-04-2008 at 05:27 PM. Reason: Addl Info
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Old 03-04-2008, 08:32 PM   #7
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Electrical Advice Caution!!!


Arizona law mandates that a handyman such as myself must post "Not a Licensed Contractor" on any and all business materials, i.e. business cards, advertisements, flyers, posters, invoices, vehicle signage, etc. And so I, like many others, cooperate fully. The law is designed to protect the consumer and I agree with it.

I am not a licensed electrician. I don't have to be BY LAW to do the type of electrical work that I routinely do. I stay within myself, my knowledge and my skillset and I simply don't do work that might be dangerous or present a problem for my customers. If I'm not sure, I'll always defer to someone with more knowledge than me.

But I also don't fancy myself a swaggering keyboard commando like some and dump on others just because of a union card, a piece of paper and an attitude. What I lack in formal electrical training, knowledge of code and a paper license, I compensate for with intelligence, aptitude, experience, decency and civility, especially when those with little or no knowledge whatsoever on a specific subject ask a question in all earnesty.

Truth be told, a few of you licensed fellows need to get down off of your high horse, talk more in simplified layman's terms, refrain from cutting and pasting paragraphs from code books and show a whole lot more patience with DIY-ers, especially the newbies, assuming you actually want to help them out.

If what they're endeavoring to do is dangerous or not legal, by all means, tell them nicely that they're headed down the wrong road. If you have the time and energy, perhaps you can explain to them "why" it's not a good thing. Just don't insult them.

Lately, a few posters have become more than sarcastic with newbies. I'm of the opinion that if newbies and uniformed DIY-ers are truly a burden, then perhaps those annoyed and intolerant members should not participate in this foruim.

I, for one, am here to particpate, to share and to learn.

Posted with malice towards none.

Last edited by End Grain; 03-04-2008 at 08:42 PM.
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Old 03-04-2008, 09:16 PM   #8
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Electrical Advice Caution!!!


There is a world of difference between a DIY picture frame and a DIY service change out. Like Mike said, most things in the other forums won't result in molten copper showering your face. Where it is relatively easy to explain how to do an electrical project to someone with mechanical skill, like a carpenter, it is quite another thing to tell, say, a receptionist. Not that there aren't some very handy receptionists out there. It's just that a certain amount of skill with tools and machines is prerequisite to something as deadly as electrical work.

Alot of the sarcasm that you read isn't so much that some don't want to help someone. It seems more directed at people who don't even know that they don't have the most very basic of skills to even begin the project. "Which way do I turn the screws?" kinds of questions would mean that if you even have to ask that, it should be painfully obvious to yourself that this is not a project you want to tackle .

In other words, you have to know what you don't know. I think the OP was more to the point that we have some people posting answers to questions, when they themselves don't have but a very tenuous grasp on the subject themselves. A poster comes to mind where in one thread he is trying desperately to grasp the most basic fundamentals of grounding and bonding, and in another thread he is giving advice on changing out services.

In my opinion, no matter how informed someone may be on the subject, no one but a LICENSED ELECTRICIAN has any business *charging money* for electrical work.

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Old 03-04-2008, 09:56 PM   #9
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Electrical Advice Caution!!!


Vary good advice and I will follow it. BUT I have found that most Licensed electricians don't understand grounding, and bonding, and each one uses their own terminology to explain things they have been taught or read in a book, and just blindly regurgitate. Grounding and bonding is a vary confusing subject for most electricians. Throw a 4 wire isolated ground in there and it gets even better. My experience includes electrical engineering in both AC and DC and the terminology means different things. Not only to the electrician but also between electricians, counties, towns, cities, states, regions and inspectors. I have to go by my local code, and inspector.

Last edited by RobertS; 03-05-2008 at 06:37 AM.
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Old 03-04-2008, 10:03 PM   #10
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Electrical Advice Caution!!!


I agree with Marc that this should probably be a sticky. While I am not a license holder, I am a working professional. I have a good knowledge of my trade, and a better knowledge of my limitations. If I don't know an answer, I simply don't respond. I think that advice gleaned in this forum is better than nothing. I also think that if you have a license, say so in your profile. Most do anyway, but I think people respect that. I know I do.

I don't think that there is an attitude problem. Certain people on this forum do not want to hear information that is contrary to their experience. Even if that information is correct and could save equipment or personnel. The 400 amp service with CT cabinet LEAPS to mind. All we can do is not lead people into harm's way. That and stop others from doing so.
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Old 03-04-2008, 10:54 PM   #11
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Electrical Advice Caution!!!


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I don't think that there is an attitude problem. Certain people on this forum do not want to hear information that is contrary to their experience. Even if that information is correct and could save equipment or personnel.
That observation right there speaks directly to the attitude to which I was referring. I will humbly and readily defer to anyone with greater knowledge on a given subject but the superior knowledge another may possess on a given subject is not a free pass for tossing civility and good fellowship straight out the window. The majority of posters here in this forum are tried and true gentlemen and ladies. Always a pleasure to interract with them and to learn from them. It's the scant few - those fistula-like annoying exceptions to the rule - who think it's apropos - and warranted - to behave boorishly and rudely and with an almost supreme arrogance.

A license in a particular field serves as testimony to an individual's hard work and accomplishments. It is commendable and it is worthy of respect but IMO it limits that individual's intellectual advantage to that particular field - not that of the entire universe around us.

Peace to one and all. Malice towards none.
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Old 03-05-2008, 11:37 AM   #12
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Electrical Advice Caution!!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by jerryh3 View Post
Are you saying that licensed electricians never do any horrible work?
Of course not. But they do a whole lot less horrible work than people without the proper training and experience do. Just because some doctor somewhere does a botched job, is not going to convince me to do my own surgery. Somethings are best left to trained experts. Sorry, that's the way I see it. You can do whatever you want.
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Old 03-05-2008, 11:51 AM   #13
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Electrical Advice Caution!!!


Sometimes that "attitude problem" mentioned here is self inflicted. There is one DIY guy on this board who has had grounding and bonding explained to him over and over, by licensed professionals who are code experts and have a very good working knowledge of this subject. Including the whys and wherefores. But the guy doesn't want to hear it. He wants to do it his way. Ok fine, I don't have a problem with that, but then stop asking, if you know it all.

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