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Old 03-18-2008, 10:41 PM   #46
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Ele hot water tank and welder sharing circuit


Hey Robert

Thanks for the info on the migs but thats a first for me were these older lincolns that were that way? I can't find a mig on the lincoln site that is configured that way. Do you know the model number of one so I can familiarize myself with it? Thanks.

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Old 03-19-2008, 12:36 AM   #47
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I agree that this looks like a hack. However, I must say that whoever did this was probably trying to make the best with what he was given (you know how bosses are). I'd give the poor fellow a pat on the back for at least having enough knowledge to "make it as right as he could" by limiting the number of available spaces to 6 to satisfy the service disconnecting rules. If this were a real hack job, it would still have all the bus stabs.

Now, to the OP, you can fill that last space with a breaker for your welder. The total amp ratings of the breakers doesn't matter. They could add up to 1000 amps, it isn't important so long as the actual draw on the system isn't over the service size. Get a CH two-pole breaker and start welding.

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Old 03-19-2008, 05:20 AM   #48
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Ele hot water tank and welder sharing circuit


forgive me for being lazy. We just moved into this house and the welder was in a box under other junk.

It's a three prong plug on the welder.

I'm hearing that if the number of breakers is less than 6 then a main breaker is not needed. But it don't seam right to me that I can't kill the power to this panel. other than pull the meter. At my other house I use to backfeed the panel with a generator. I would make sure I killed the main breaker first. I can't do that now.

InPhase277-
If I add another breaker - what is going to prevent me from loading more than 200 amos. Right now if all curcuits draw their max it would be 200amps. cause adding up the breakers = 200 amps.

Is it possible to add a main breaker to this box?
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Old 03-19-2008, 05:44 AM   #49
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Ele hot water tank and welder sharing circuit


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If I add another breaker - what is going to prevent me from loading more than 200 amos. Right now if all curcuits draw their max it would be 200amps. cause adding up the breakers = 200 amps.

Is it possible to add a main breaker to this box?
As it was said, adding up the breakers means as much as Britney Spears saying she's a virgin. (well, a few years ago, anyways...)
If you were to take my panel and add everything up, it would be 510 amps (20 20AMP breakers, 1 50AMP and 2 30AMP).

But in reality, you are never going to use all that all at once.

Think of it this way. Have you ever tripped a breaker because you overloaded it (tried to draw too much)? Most people never have. I wouldn't worry about it.
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Old 03-19-2008, 06:22 AM   #50
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If you were to take my panel and add everything up, it would be 510 amps (20 20AMP breakers, 1 50AMP and 2 30AMP).

But in reality, you are never going to use all that all at once.
but IF you did try to draw 510 amps your 200 amp main breaker would trip.
I'm not worried about it but I would like to do what's right.
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Old 03-19-2008, 06:39 AM   #51
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her's a label that was in the panel.

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Old 03-19-2008, 06:44 AM   #52
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but IF you did try to draw 510 amps your 200 amp main breaker would trip.
I'm not worried about it but I would like to do what's right.
Yes, if you loaded each circuit under their rating (loaded a 20 amp with say 15 amps) and all of them were loaded up to total more than your main breaker yes it would trip.

But the way I understand it is that you don't have a main disconnect? If that is the case it shouldn't be that hard to add a main disco between the meter and main panel. But, I am not a professional so advice on something like this would be best left to the other guys who know more about it.
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Old 03-19-2008, 10:09 AM   #53
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Wazeaz

Lets try to summarize what we have... looking at the whole picture.

Starting back at the water heater and welder.

You can do as we first suggested provided both the welder and the hot water tank are 240 volts only and the welder uses a receptacle that is a 6-30R not a Dryer receptacle. It would be nice if we had some info on the welder. The better option would be to run a branch circuit from the open space at the main panel.

I would be a little leary of a welder that was left at the residence in a box under junk...if thats what your saying

I really can't be certain what has been done (modified) at the main panel if anything. It does appear to be tampered with IMO. The second thing. The French electrician brought the point that the panel is OK without a Main breaker because of a rule called the 6 throw. This is true if the panel states this in the ' Suitable for Service Equipment' block on the cover sheet you posted. However when I read that it does not state it is suitable for service equipment when used with 6 throws of the hand. Which means you must be able to remove all power to the dwelling by turning off six breakers or less. Double pole breakers like you have are one throw and you have 5 of them with one double space left over. So all power can be removed with 5 throws of the hand. This would be compliant if the specification sheet you posted stated that 6 throws or less would make the panel suitable for service equipment.. it does not say that. It says either a backfed circuit breaker with retainer kit CH9RB installed... Or... when a Main Breaker is installed. So in my opinion the electrician who did this is not compliant with the manufacturer instructions to make the panel suitable as service equipment. Maybe others will have another opinion but that is how I see things.
It does appear that the French electrician is correct on this being a CH12EE200 panel. Your posting that cover sheet also clears up the panel is configured as 120/240 single phase which is what you want. The other would have been 208Y120 3 phase.
So I think the panel is correct after getting all this information. And you did a great job of putting up the things we needed to sort this out.

So what I suggest is to give us the model# of your Lincoln welder and see what we can find out on it for you and make sure that the original plan will work.
Second if you would have an electrician come by or take your pictures to a knowledgeable person along with that cover sheet and verify that the panel is suitable for service equipment as it stands.
If that turns out as YES then you could add another breaker to the main panel (bottom right) suitable for your welder and run a branch circuit for it from there.

Next you need to forget the totaling of breakers this will not be an accurate way of telling whether you are over-extending your 200 amp service. A Demand load calculation is used to determine this. From what I see you are not near overloading your 200 amp service.

EDIT: I just saw the reply from inphase77 and I would have to agree that calling this a hack may have been a little bit of a stretch. He makes a very valid point that the electrician did what he could.

Quote:
Is it possible to add a main breaker to this box?
The cover sheet says it can have a main breaker configuration and states it must have in order to be used as the service equipment.

Last edited by Stubbie; 03-19-2008 at 11:23 AM.
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Old 03-19-2008, 10:40 AM   #54
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Also for your knowledge you cannot backfeed a panel with a generator with out a compliant transfer switch or interlock kit. the backfeeding of the utility cannot rely on you turning off the main breaker.
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Old 03-19-2008, 10:55 AM   #55
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Next you need to forget the totaling of breakers this will not be an accurate way of telling whether you are over-extending your 200 amp service. A Demand load calculation is used to determine this. From what I see you are not near overloading your 200 amp service.
.
So can I just add a 30amp breaker for my welder and forget the whole hot water/welder sharing thing. That's what I wanted to do in the first place but I thought I was overloading the panel.
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Old 03-19-2008, 10:56 AM   #56
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Ele hot water tank and welder sharing circuit


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Also for your knowledge you cannot backfeed a panel with a generator with out a compliant transfer switch or interlock kit. the backfeeding of the utility cannot rely on you turning off the main breaker.
What? I thought the practice of plugging my generator into my dryer outlet was comletely safe and code compliant? The linemen should be wearing rubber gloves!
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Old 03-19-2008, 11:08 AM   #57
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You would be unemployed as a comedian...
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Old 03-19-2008, 11:12 AM   #58
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So can I just add a 30amp breaker for my welder and forget the whole hot water/welder sharing thing. That's what I wanted to do in the first place but I thought I was overloading the panel.
Under the circumstances that is what I would prefer you to do, however the other issues should be addressed first about the panel being compliant. If it is then by all means add the breaker to the main and do not share it on the hot water heater circuit.
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Old 03-19-2008, 11:14 AM   #59
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You seem pretty concerned with the idea of not being able to disconnect the panel. I share your concern, because I have never been a fan of the 6 throw rule as it pertains to a single panel. If it were up to me, we'd have a disconnect on the *line side* of the meter, and a main in the panel. I'd like to be able to kill the power to the panel entirely, service conductors and all.

Go to Home Ripoff and get your self a NEMA 3R rated panel (that is, for outdoor use), like the one in the attached pic. Call your power company and they will come and kindly pull your meter. Install the new panel in place of the old one. The existing service wires are probably long enough. Have the power co. reinstall the meter.

You should of course check to make sure you can legally do this in your neck of the woods. Most power companies I've worked with only require an inspection if the entire service is changed. You should be good to go.

And while you're at Home Desperate, look into getting a generator transfer switch. You have opened anothe can of worms by telling us about how you connect your genny.
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Old 03-19-2008, 11:23 AM   #60
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Also for your knowledge you cannot backfeed a panel with a generator with out a compliant transfer switch or interlock kit. the backfeeding of the utility cannot rely on you turning off the main breaker.
I didn't know. Really, I thought it was OK. There's no way the generator can do the whole house. So I have to turn off all the breakers and then turn on only one at a time.

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