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Old 03-18-2008, 07:43 AM   #16
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Ele hot water tank and welder sharing circuit


My gut is telling me to stay away from this one. Somethin just ain't rite. I don't like cold showers, and God help me if my wife were to start one. Code aside, don't piss off the wife. I mean if I forgot to switch it over to the heater.

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Old 03-18-2008, 10:24 AM   #17
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Ele hot water tank and welder sharing circuit


I can't say as I have ever done a switch as I suggested for this type of application. As always we are faced with new things all the time in this industry. So research is key to a safe installation. The pre-mentioned switch will certainly fill the bill but are a bit pricey and there are so many products out there it is possible there may be something that is much better and cheaper for this application. I gave my electrical supply guy a buzz and he suggested this leviton toggle DPDT 30 amp switch 2hp 24 amp max. Do you guys think this would be compliant? you need to enter 1288 in the catalog window upper left then click go.

http://www.levitonhelpdesk.com/catalog/
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Old 03-18-2008, 11:15 AM   #18
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Ele hot water tank and welder sharing circuit


A hot water heater is designed to keep hot water hot. How much extra stress will this put on the elements. How long will the switch last when turning on during maximum draw from the hot water elements. I don't know if the heater or the switch can take much of that kind of use. I can't calculate anything with out knowing the wattage of the elements. You usually turn on the breaker once or twice through out the life of the heater. The heater is not designed for that kind of use, and down the road it will cause problems.

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Old 03-18-2008, 11:19 AM   #19
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Ele hot water tank and welder sharing circuit


I'm not sure what your saying, it wouldn't be any different than the circuit breaker....have you calculated maximum draw?
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Old 03-18-2008, 11:39 AM   #20
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Ele hot water tank and welder sharing circuit


Robert with all due respect that makes no sense. This is a dual load 30 amp rated switch just like the circuit breaker and the heater thermostats. It is designed to switch 2hp motor loads or 30 amp resistive loads at maintained contact.. one or the other. The thermostats turn the elements on and off thousands of times and the elements don't fail because of it. He is using a welder once in a while not 50 times a day. Think about it.

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A hot water heater is designed to keep hot water hot.
You probably want to delete that......

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Old 03-18-2008, 12:26 PM   #21
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Ele hot water tank and welder sharing circuit


I am not comfortable with this hot water thing, and I wouldn't do it. Electrically it sounds good. I'm not sure the elements can stand the extra use heating up a whole tank of water. Worst case is you might go through more heating elements. I guess it couldn't be as bad as 3 teenagers taking showers 2 times or more a day.

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Old 03-18-2008, 01:20 PM   #22
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Ele hot water tank and welder sharing circuit


Why would you need to heat hot water? I think it's just called a water heater. I think the elements can take it. Haven't you ever heard of water heater timers? Also, try having a wife that takes 30 minute hot showers every day. If that doesn't put stress on a water heater, I don't know what will.
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Old 03-18-2008, 01:34 PM   #23
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Ele hot water tank and welder sharing circuit


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stubbie View Post
I can't say as I have ever done a switch as I suggested for this type of application. As always we are faced with new things all the time in this industry. So research is key to a safe installation. The pre-mentioned switch will certainly fill the bill but are a bit pricey and there are so many products out there it is possible there may be something that is much better and cheaper for this application. I gave my electrical supply guy a buzz and he suggested this leviton toggle DPDT 30 amp switch 2hp 24 amp max. Do you guys think this would be compliant? you need to enter 1288 in the catalog window upper left then click go.

http://www.levitonhelpdesk.com/catalog/

I belive so it can be code compliant with this set up with the DPDT set up due one section can be hardwired to waterheater and second section can wired to proper 6-30R repectale.

however keep in your mind with the #10's the 4X4X2 1/8 junction box with single toggle cover can meet the size with this set up.

Merci, Marc
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Old 03-18-2008, 02:24 PM   #24
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Ele hot water tank and welder sharing circuit


I agree Marc and it would be a safe and compliant installation. Your box size is well noted....

And of course I have assumed from the beginning of this thread that a individual branch circuit is not feasible.

Robert

Water heaters are required to have disconnects when the breaker panel is not is sight and some even say they need one anyway to be code compliant. Disconnect switches are installed on water heater branch circuits all the time.

Last edited by Stubbie; 03-18-2008 at 02:29 PM.
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Old 03-18-2008, 04:36 PM   #25
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Ele hot water tank and welder sharing circuit


wow you guys are great. thanks for all the replies.

And of course I have assumed from the beginning of this thread that a individual branch circuit is not feasible

right. I don't have space in the panel. This house has a 200 amp load center out side by the meter. it has no main breaker. it has the following breakers:
60 amp feeds sub panel inside house
50 amp stove
30 amp a/c / heater
30 amp a/c / heater
30 amp hot water tank

all are 240 volts. so I can't add another breaker cause I'll be over the 200 amp.

am I thinking right? (side question) if I have a 50 amp 240v breaker is that 25 amp per (120)leg.

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Old 03-18-2008, 06:23 PM   #26
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Ele hot water tank and welder sharing circuit


Your thinking wrong. You don't add the breakers... this has nothing to do with the demand load on the house 200 amp service. You could have 300 amps of breakers.

No it's 50 amps per leg but that does not equal 100 amps it simply means any load of over 50 amps on either leg will trip the breaker. It's a 50 amp breaker only 240 volts.

If you have enough empty spaces left over you could run a branch circuit from the main panel or the sub-panel

Last edited by Stubbie; 03-18-2008 at 06:29 PM.
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Old 03-18-2008, 06:38 PM   #27
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Ele hot water tank and welder sharing circuit


this has nothing to do with the demand load on the house 200 amp service. You could have 300 amps of breakers.

but this panel has no main breaker. if I had a 200 amp main breaker then I would agree that I could have 300 amps worth of breakers.



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Old 03-18-2008, 06:48 PM   #28
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Ele hot water tank and welder sharing circuit


Quote:
Originally Posted by wazeaz View Post
this has nothing to do with the demand load on the house 200 amp service. You could have 300 amps of breakers.

but this panel has no main breaker. if I had a 200 amp main breaker then I would agree that I could have 300 amps worth of breakers.



The overcurrent protection is provided by the breaker that is feeding the subpanel. The sub doesn't need a main breaker.
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Old 03-18-2008, 06:50 PM   #29
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Ele hot water tank and welder sharing circuit


pics of the main panel outside
Attached Thumbnails
Ele hot water tank and welder sharing circuit-0318081840.jpg   Ele hot water tank and welder sharing circuit-0318081841.jpg  

Last edited by wazeaz; 03-18-2008 at 06:56 PM.
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Old 03-18-2008, 06:55 PM   #30
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Ele hot water tank and welder sharing circuit


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Originally Posted by jerryh3 View Post
The overcurrent protection is provided by the breaker that is feeding the subpanel. The sub doesn't need a main breaker.

neither the main nor the sub panel have a main breaker. I understand that the sub is fed by the 60 amp in the main.
but the hot water tank is wired to the main panel.

the question I have now is can I add another curcuit to the main panel. it has no main breaker and the breakers add up tp 200

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