Doubling grounds in panel - twisting or not?

simanco · 07-07-2012, 06:46 PM

Howdy all,

My panel is rated to allow grounds to be doubled up. Do I want to twist 'em or just neatly line them up under the screw, or does it matter?

It seems to me that so long as both wires are in that hole and that screw is tight, it wouldn't much matter, but ... "it seems to me" has gotten me into trouble in the past.

I need to free up some spaces! Why someone would make a 40 circuit panel with only 20 connectors each for neutral and ground is beyond me. Even 25 would have been more reasonable.

Thanks,
Jim

kbsparky · 07-07-2012, 06:50 PM

Add a ground bar kit. Move as many bare ground wires to it to free up neutral slots. ONE wire per slot for neutral connections.

I would not twist them. If you ever have to relocate one, it will be a big thing to undo all that twisting ... (just sayin') ...

TarheelTerp · 07-07-2012, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by simanco

Why someone would make a 40 circuit panel with only 20 connectors each for neutral and ground is beyond me.

Because the neutral and ground can be under the same screw.
But I'll also suggest that you get an additional ground bar to keep it neater...
just don't separate it from the others.

k_buz · 07-07-2012, 07:46 PM

The bars aren't specifically 1 for grounds and 1 for neutrals. Main panels grounds and neutrals go to the same bars and likely that the two bars are bonded to each other. So, you have 40 spaces for grounds and neutrals not 20 spaces for grounds and 20 spaces for neutrals. Also, keep in mind that all circuits don't have grounding conductors, in fact, many use the metal raceway (EMT) as the ground path.

kbsparky · 07-07-2012, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TarheelTerp

Because the neutral and ground can be under the same screw...

No they can't! See section 408.41

simanco · 07-07-2012, 08:14 PM

Thanks all, for clarifying.

Jim

simanco · 07-10-2012, 12:50 AM

To clarify something . . .

I picked up a ground bar kit - bar and two mounting screws. It's branded for my panel so I anticipate no problems screwing it into the existing holes.

The question is, "do I need to do anything Other Than attach it to the panel?" As I understand it, mounting it directly to the panel provides this bar's connection to ground and no grounding wire needs to be run from the existing bar to this one, correct?

Just making sure...

Thanks again,
Jim

kontoose · 07-10-2012, 03:01 AM

Right. The code changed... The conduit always used to accepted as the "equipment" ground, but no more - (sniffle...)

Jim Port · 07-10-2012, 06:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kontoose

Right. The code changed... The conduit always used to accepted as the "equipment" ground, but no more - (sniffle...)

Oh really? The NEC still recognizes metallic conduit as a grounding means.

stickboy1375 · 07-10-2012, 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kontoose

Right. The code changed... The conduit always used to accepted as the "equipment" ground, but no more - (sniffle...)

Does anyone actually still own a codebook, or is everything just hearsay these days?

kontoose · 07-11-2012, 01:18 AM

Sorry...In California, the conduit is no longer allowed to be used as equipment ground - but California is always ahead of the game - just like in football, I guess...

Jim Port · 07-11-2012, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kontoose

Sorry...In California, the conduit is no longer allowed to be used as equipment ground - but California is always ahead of the game - just like in football, I guess...

It would be helpful if you added where these code changes apply. Not everyone here lives or follows the California electrical code. I don't know why you would even put something out there from the CEC unless the OP was from California.

k_buz · 07-11-2012, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kontoose

Sorry...In California, the conduit is no longer allowed to be used as equipment ground - but California is always ahead of the game - just like in football, I guess...

I would like to see the exact code rule on this.

k_buz · 07-11-2012, 11:07 AM

I decided to look it up myself...

From the 2010 CEC based on the NEC 08

feel free to look it up yourself ( http://ia700503.us.archive.org/20/it...title24_03.pdf ) page 232

Quote:

358~60 Grounding. EMT shall be permitted as an
equipment grounding conductor

If this isn't the correct cycle for the CEC or there has been an added amendment, please point out a specific citation, because right now, all I see is a bunch of nonsense from you without anything to back it up.

jbfan · 07-11-2012, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stickboy1375

Does anyone actually still own a codebook, or is everything just hearsay these days?

Why spend money on a code book, when sooner or later someone will give you the answer you are looking for, right or wrong!

07-07-2012, 06:46 PM	#1
simanco Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Kentucky Posts: 48	Doubling grounds in panel - twisting or not? Howdy all, My panel is rated to allow grounds to be doubled up. Do I want to twist 'em or just neatly line them up under the screw, or does it matter? It seems to me that so long as both wires are in that hole and that screw is tight, it wouldn't much matter, but ... "it seems to me" has gotten me into trouble in the past. I need to free up some spaces! Why someone would make a 40 circuit panel with only 20 connectors each for neutral and ground is beyond me. Even 25 would have been more reasonable. Thanks, Jim

07-07-2012, 06:50 PM	#2
kbsparky Electrical Contractor Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Delmarva Posts: 3,148	Doubling grounds in panel - twisting or not? Add a ground bar kit. Move as many bare ground wires to it to free up neutral slots. ONE wire per slot for neutral connections. I would not twist them. If you ever have to relocate one, it will be a big thing to undo all that twisting ... (just sayin') ... __________________ -KB Life is uncertain -- eat dessert first!! To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

07-07-2012, 07:46 PM	#4
k_buz Licensed Electrician Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: SE Wisconsin Posts: 3,275	Doubling grounds in panel - twisting or not? The bars aren't specifically 1 for grounds and 1 for neutrals. Main panels grounds and neutrals go to the same bars and likely that the two bars are bonded to each other. So, you have 40 spaces for grounds and neutrals not 20 spaces for grounds and 20 spaces for neutrals. Also, keep in mind that all circuits don't have grounding conductors, in fact, many use the metal raceway (EMT) as the ground path. __________________ Not a fan of the new layout. Answers based on the National Electric Code. Always check local amendments.

07-07-2012, 08:14 PM	#6
simanco Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Kentucky Posts: 48	Doubling grounds in panel - twisting or not? Thanks all, for clarifying. Jim

07-10-2012, 12:50 AM	#7
simanco Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Kentucky Posts: 48	Doubling grounds in panel - twisting or not? To clarify something . . . I picked up a ground bar kit - bar and two mounting screws. It's branded for my panel so I anticipate no problems screwing it into the existing holes. The question is, "do I need to do anything Other Than attach it to the panel?" As I understand it, mounting it directly to the panel provides this bar's connection to ground and no grounding wire needs to be run from the existing bar to this one, correct? Just making sure... Thanks again, Jim

Doubling grounds in panel - twisting or not?