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Old 11-29-2009, 04:30 PM   #1
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Doorbell Transformer


My doorbell transformer primary hot wire is stuffed into the closest breaker along with a #12 black wire. The doorbell wire is about a #18 tinned copper. The doorbell wire is loose with the breaker terminal screw torqued against the #12 black wire.

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Old 11-29-2009, 06:43 PM   #2
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And. . .?

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Old 11-29-2009, 07:33 PM   #3
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Looking for a solution. Thanks!
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Old 11-29-2009, 08:09 PM   #4
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Lightly sand both wires and wrap the smaller wire around the larger wire
http://www.web3d.org/x3d/specificati...ages/helix.gif
and solder the joint so the screw puts pressure on both?

Last edited by Yoyizit; 11-29-2009 at 08:15 PM.
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Old 11-29-2009, 08:39 PM   #5
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Do you have a question?

Or is there a problem?

Etc.
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Old 11-29-2009, 08:49 PM   #6
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Just pigtail a short length of #12 to the lead and cap with a wirenut. Attach the other end under the breaker screw.
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Old 11-29-2009, 08:52 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fpeikin View Post
My doorbell transformer primary hot wire is stuffed into the closest breaker along with a #12 black wire. The doorbell wire is about a #18 tinned copper. The doorbell wire is loose with the breaker terminal screw torqued against the #12 black wire.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoyizit View Post
And. . .?
So is someone to assume that you believe a loose connection is proper and would not lead to problems?

Are you aware that unless breakers are listed for use with multiple conductors that this is a violation? Even breakers that can accept 2 conductors require the conductors to be the same size and material.

Last edited by Jim Port; 11-29-2009 at 09:06 PM.
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Old 11-30-2009, 03:09 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
So is someone to assume that you believe a loose connection is proper and would not lead to problems?
In this case, the likelihood that this particular loose connection, soldered or unsoldered, usually carrying only the magnetizing current of a bell 'frmr, would lead to a fatality is probably less than 1 in 100,000, per year. Driving a car, per year, is 10x as dangerous. Smoking, 100x.

Fear, uncertainty and doubt sells a lot of stuff.

Some of what the NEC tells you is reasonable and prudent. As for

the bucks you pay for the equipment
vs.
the extra safety your dollars buy. . .? "I believe" that's a different story.

Have you seen how many industry reps are on the code panels? Did you ever hear of
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture
?

Last edited by Yoyizit; 11-30-2009 at 03:29 PM.
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Old 11-30-2009, 03:15 PM   #9
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Doorbell Transformer


Also would like to add that Solder shouldn't ever be in the equation there.

With very few exceptions there is no install method that would require/permit soldering wires and still be NEC compliant...


Last edited by DownRiverGuy; 11-30-2009 at 03:16 PM. Reason: (I can't spell)
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Old 11-30-2009, 06:43 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoyizit View Post
In this case, the likelihood that this particular loose connection, soldered or unsoldered, usually carrying only the magnetizing current of a bell 'frmr, would lead to a fatality is probably less than 1 in 100,000, per year. Driving a car, per year, is 10x as dangerous. Smoking, 100x.

Fear, uncertainty and doubt sells a lot of stuff.

Some of what the NEC tells you is reasonable and prudent. As for

the bucks you pay for the equipment
vs.
the extra safety your dollars buy. . .? "I believe" that's a different story.

Have you seen how many industry reps are on the code panels? Did you ever hear of
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture
?
I don't know where you came up with those "statistics" nor do I care. I feel it is irresponsible to give misleading and potentially dangerous advice.

FWIW, 1 out of 100,00 equates to more deaths that I would like to think about given that the population in this country is over 300 million. Using fuzzy math that sounds like 3000 people per year could die from following your advice. Do you find that acceptable? I would not want that on me.

I am well aware that the code making panels have industry reps on them. They also have contractors and other professionals on them. While I might not agree with some of the trends that seem to becoming more predominant like the design issues, overall I feel that the true purpose of providing a safe system is still foremost in them minds of the CMPs.
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Old 11-30-2009, 06:45 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DownRiverGuy View Post
Also would like to add that Solder shouldn't ever be in the equation there.

With very few exceptions there is no install method that would require/permit soldering wires and still be NEC compliant...
So you are saying that soldering wires is not allowed by the NEC ?
Could you please quote the code section for that ?

I'd never solder the connections & then attach to the breaker
I would solder it to a pigtail, cap it & then attach the pigtail to the breaker
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Old 11-30-2009, 07:00 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
I don't know where you came up with those "statistics" nor do I care. I feel it is irresponsible to give misleading and potentially dangerous advice.

FWIW, 1 out of 100,00 equates to more deaths that I would like to think about given that the population in this country is over 300 million. Using fuzzy math that sounds like 3000 people per year could die from following your advice. Do you find that acceptable? I would not want that on me.
1

I am well aware that the code making panels have industry reps on them. They also have contractors and other professionals on them. While I might not agree with some of the trends that seem to becoming more predominant like the design issues, overall I feel that the true purpose of providing a safe system is still foremost in them minds of the CMPs.
2
1 It's fatal house fires per year in the US from all causes so it is a max.
How many fatal house fires per year, or per decade, would be caused by twisting these wires together, or just leaving them as they were?

It's not "on" me. It's on the OP. The OP ultimately makes, or should be making, his/her own risk/benefit tradeoffs.
That's one problem with the NEC; it decides for us.

Of course, as illustrated with this recent mammogram screening dustup, the public may react with confusion or rage if you give them data and let them decide.

2 Good, and optimistic, answer. What bothers me is that there is no disincentive to not pile one costly [to the consumer] safety measure on top of another. When is it safe enough? The Stigler guy who thought up the idea of regulatory capture believed it was an inevitable outcome.

Last edited by Yoyizit; 11-30-2009 at 07:04 PM.
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Old 11-30-2009, 07:04 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoyizit View Post
It's not "on" me. It's on the OP. The OP ultimately makes, or should be making, his/her own risk/benefit tradeoffs.
That's one problem with the NEC; it decides for us.
Sure, but how much of an informed decision can be made when the data used to form that decision is flawed?

Maybe the fact the the NEC makes those decisions for us is a saving grace. Otherwise there would be more fatalities.
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Old 11-30-2009, 07:10 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
Sure, but how much of an informed decision can be made when the data used to form that decision is flawed?

Maybe the fact the the NEC makes those decisions for us is a saving grace. Otherwise there would be more fatalities.
The defense rests.
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Old 11-30-2009, 07:19 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
Just pigtail a short length of #12 to the lead and cap with a wirenut. Attach the other end under the breaker screw.
This is the method to use, not solder
While solder may work....wires under a breaker or bus in the panel must be the same gauge

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