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Old 05-22-2011, 11:00 AM   #31
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Do self grounding 110V receptacles really work?


The toner set will alow you to trace the wires to each juncton point.Make sure the power to circuit is turned off. 110 volts will kill the tone set.

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Old 05-22-2011, 11:46 AM   #32
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Do self grounding 110V receptacles really work?


called HD to see if they had one and out of stock, but the guy there said it will work only with hot wire, not ground. Does this guy know what hes talking about? If hes right, why is it they also work for cable TV cables that done have that voltage? (scratching head, left elbow on desk.....)
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Old 05-22-2011, 11:48 AM   #33
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Do self grounding 110V receptacles really work?


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The toner set will alow you to trace the wires to each juncton point.Make sure the power to circuit is turned off. 110 volts will kill the tone set.
Thaks. Sounds like the HD guy is mis informed.......now to find a set arouind here......
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Old 05-22-2011, 12:14 PM   #34
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Do self grounding 110V receptacles really work?


These used to be on the shelf at HD and Lowes. They might be in red also.

http://www.google.com/products/catal...w=1088&bih=591#

Use could use it on the black and white since the ground is in the same cable. You just need to trace the run.
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Old 05-22-2011, 12:30 PM   #35
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Do self grounding 110V receptacles really work?


OK, jim. I will call the local lowes and see if they have it. Now, just to make sure- breaker has to be OFF for this test, right??
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Old 05-23-2011, 01:47 PM   #36
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Do self grounding 110V receptacles really work?


Found one at other HD. Heading out there now to try the new toy.......

Gimme a few hours.
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Old 05-23-2011, 07:43 PM   #37
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Do self grounding 110V receptacles really work?


OK, not gonna believe this, but got there, and before I cut open the heavy duty clear stupid plastic sealing the gismo, I went to the steel stake to un clip the ground wire when it hit me- This stake is not just a stake in the ground, as I may have eluded to, its the stake for the ground for the PANEL!!

Geez, could this be legit, guys? I may have conveyed the wrong info to yous all along, inadvertantly, but yeah, it iS the ground stake for the elec panel. Does this change things now, people? I know cuz theres a massive elec ground connected to it!

Thanks!
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Old 05-24-2011, 06:51 AM   #38
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Do self grounding 110V receptacles really work?


Just wanted to bump this up today- should I return the LAN tool and consider it done or otherwise, guys?
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Old 05-24-2011, 08:20 AM   #39
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Do self grounding 110V receptacles really work?


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Originally Posted by noquacks View Post
called HD to see if they had one and out of stock, but the guy there said it will work only with hot wire, not ground. Does this guy know what hes talking about? If hes right, why is it they also work for cable TV cables that done have that voltage? (scratching head, left elbow on desk.....)
I think what he's (guy at HD) might be referring to is they have a gadget you plug in, uses your 120 VAC, and it makes a ticking sound and you use the other device to trace the circuit. You can use it to figure out which receptacles are on the same circuit and vaguely find out which circuit breaker is associated with it, but it can tend to send the signal into other circuits since everything that is live is electrically connected to a degree.

What the other guys linked for you is what you'd need for tracing ground.
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Old 05-24-2011, 08:39 AM   #40
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Do self grounding 110V receptacles really work?


Let me see if I can help you do this by finding the break in the wire, and without needing the tool before you open it.

How old is the house, it sounds like you have romex and you have plastic junction boxes so it doesn't sound like it's too old... Are the wires twisted around and tightenned under screws in the outlets or are they pushed into the back?

If the wires aren't too old and stiff and brittle and held on by screws, it would be helpful to map out the circuit so you can say that starting from your circut breaker panel, this outlet is first, this is second and so on.

First question I don't think I saw a clear answer... You speak of 4 outlets in one room that are on one circuit. Are any outlets in any other rooms on the same circuit? When you turn off this breaker and any others are still on, you need to get a list of what receptacles are dead whether they're in the same room or in other rooms.

Out of all the receptacles you've identified on this circuit, test them all for ground. If some of them have ground then you know that they come earlier in the circuit than the ungrounded outlets, and your break is somewhere between your good ground outlets and the ungrounded outlets. If none of the outlets have good ground, you know there is a break that is between the first outlet the circuit breaker.

Whichever way you identify where the break is, out of all ungrounded outlets you might be able further identify which one of those is first in the outlet.. If you have 2 cables going in and have 2 black wires connecting to the outlet, one is going from either the circuit breaker or outlets that are earlier in the system and the other is going to the outlets later in the system. If you only have 1 cable, that outlet is the last one in the branch.

To find the outlet that is first, you would disconenct one of the black wires, turn on the circuit breaker and see which outlets are dead. The more dead outlets, the earlier in the system the outlet you just disconnected black wire is.

Maybe you can do something that even involves less disconnecting since you have a wire now going to your existing ground rod outside. Disconnect the wire, leaving it connected at the ground rod, and you can check for continuity at the ground wire for your various outlets that are in the circuit and see if one of the outlets on the circuit in another room has continuity to your ground rod. When you find that, see if any other wires that might be wire-nutted together in that junction box are loose, this is the most likely way you have a break in the ground.

Hope that made enough sense.
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Old 05-24-2011, 02:11 PM   #41
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Do self grounding 110V receptacles really work?


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Originally Posted by WillK View Post
Let me see if I can help you do this by finding the break in the wire, and without needing the tool before you open it.

How old is the house, it sounds like you have romex and you have plastic junction boxes so it doesn't sound like it's too old... Are the wires twisted around and tightenned under screws in the outlets or are they pushed into the back?

If the wires aren't too old and stiff and brittle and held on by screws, it would be helpful to map out the circuit so you can say that starting from your circut breaker panel, this outlet is first, this is second and so on.

First question I don't think I saw a clear answer... You speak of 4 outlets in one room that are on one circuit. Are any outlets in any other rooms on the same circuit? When you turn off this breaker and any others are still on, you need to get a list of what receptacles are dead whether they're in the same room or in other rooms.

Out of all the receptacles you've identified on this circuit, test them all for ground. If some of them have ground then you know that they come earlier in the circuit than the ungrounded outlets, and your break is somewhere between your good ground outlets and the ungrounded outlets. If none of the outlets have good ground, you know there is a break that is between the first outlet the circuit breaker.

Whichever way you identify where the break is, out of all ungrounded outlets you might be able further identify which one of those is first in the outlet.. If you have 2 cables going in and have 2 black wires connecting to the outlet, one is going from either the circuit breaker or outlets that are earlier in the system and the other is going to the outlets later in the system. If you only have 1 cable, that outlet is the last one in the branch.

To find the outlet that is first, you would disconenct one of the black wires, turn on the circuit breaker and see which outlets are dead. The more dead outlets, the earlier in the system the outlet you just disconnected black wire is.

Maybe you can do something that even involves less disconnecting since you have a wire now going to your existing ground rod outside. Disconnect the wire, leaving it connected at the ground rod, and you can check for continuity at the ground wire for your various outlets that are in the circuit and see if one of the outlets on the circuit in another room has continuity to your ground rod. When you find that, see if any other wires that might be wire-nutted together in that junction box are loose, this is the most likely way you have a break in the ground.

Hope that made enough sense.
Big thanks, Will, for trying to keep this alive. Whew, lemme see, the house is v old, maybe 100 years. BUT, redone elec in about 1970. Wires in boxes are twisted and pushed back. 4 receptacles are on one circuit, and nothing else is on it, I believe (maybe 2 lamps in the room?). ALL 4 receptacles are NO grounding. And, when I grounded one of them to panel earth rod ALL got grounded based on the checker hand held device.

Now, to do what you suggested in the last paragraph of your post, I have to yank my clean work- no biggee, but first, van you comment on if my grounding to panel rod in earth is LEGIT and adequate? Cuz seems the other people said I did bad, but I think they understood, from my earlier description, I grounded to an earth rod OTHER than that of the panel rod.........

If this is not a good rod, then I will yank that wire and do what you suggested to check for Ohms....

Thaks!
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Old 05-24-2011, 02:44 PM   #42
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Do self grounding 110V receptacles really work?


noquacks,

Help me out here. Is the ground rod to which you attached the #12 wire wired back to the panel ground or not? I seem to see contradicting posts.
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Old 05-24-2011, 02:45 PM   #43
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Do self grounding 110V receptacles really work?


I'm not an electrician, but I have a house built in 1917 and I am doing my own work in doing a complete rewire. My house was partially rewired to various degrees of being done well ranging from some rewiring being done well to some rewiring being amazing that the house had not burned down already.

So I can't really say if an independent ground wire to the existing ground rod is legal. As an engineer degreed in mechanical engineering and working in the automotive industry there fore not requiring a license as would be the case if I was doing structural engineering for residential and commercial construction, I know two things: 1) I know enough about electrical to make me think that connecting a ground of an outlet to a point that is in the service panel sounds to be effectively the same as connecting to another point that is electrically connected to that same point in the service panel and 2) electrical isn't my field, and as such I know that I could be wrong and the rules were written by people better qualified in the electrical field than I.

I'm still going to maintain that the better solution, regardless of whether what you have is legal or not, is to find and fix the break.

So if these 4 outlets in your one room are the only thing on this circuit and all 4 do not connect to ground, your most likely break is either at the service panel or at the first outlet in the series.

Are you able to identify the first outlet in the circuit? Does it have the same NM cable going into it or is it individual conductors maybe indicating it is knob and tube fed?

In the main breaker panel, is it an NM cable coming into the panel? Can you trace the black to the cable, then find the ground wire coming in and if it's securely connected into the ground bar?

What is the path of this wire between the room and the panel, is it through crawlspace? Attic? Is the room adjacent to where the panel is? Are there any junction boxes where there's a splice?

It's probably easiest to start with trying to find if there's any issue in the main panel. In spite of being a lot of wires, at the least you could look to see if any bare copper wires are obviously loose and not connected to something or that they might have broken. Are there any romex cables coming in that don't have a bare copper wire coming from the outer sheathing?
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Old 05-24-2011, 02:47 PM   #44
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Do self grounding 110V receptacles really work?


Quote:
Originally Posted by sirsparksalot View Post
noquacks,

Help me out here. Is the ground rod to which you attached the #12 wire wired back to the panel ground or not? I seem to see contradicting posts.
It sounds to me like at first he did not realize that the ground rod is the ground rod to which the panel connects, but he later figured out that in fact the ground rod he connected to is the ground rod to which the service panel connects.
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Old 05-24-2011, 02:49 PM   #45
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Do self grounding 110V receptacles really work?


Here's what's confusing me

Quote:
well, guys, I did it! Routed a 12 size wire through the back of the box, grounded it to a stake that was there already, all 4 receptacles are now grounded!! Thanks!
Quote:
Right. New ground (deep sunk rod) is outside. No basement. House is on shell foundation/crawlspace below.......

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