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Old 04-20-2011, 04:29 PM   #31
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Do I need a sub panel here?


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I don't think you are allowed to put romex inside a conduit anyway. Also, make sure the wire you use is THWN or dual rated THHN/THWN. Can't use straight THHN outdoors or underground as it is not waterproof.

And while I was at it, I'd just put in the 100 amp cable now for future expansion, unless you think you'll have a use for the 60 amp after the upgrade. You can still feed it with a 60 amp breaker at the main panel for now.
Thanks. I was recomended THHN by someone else. I didn't specifically mean "romex", I just meant sheathed cable that has several conductors inside a single sheath. Would it not be cheaper just to run individual wires? This would mean THWN single wires as opposed to an all inclusive THWN with all four wires present.

I understand the difference between THHN and THWN now that I read about them. THHN is for heat only, THWN is for underground applications.

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Old 04-20-2011, 04:40 PM   #32
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Ok. just got off the phone with a local electrical supply house.

He said they don't even make THWN anymore. (?)

He said in order for it to be burried (conduit or not - it doesn't matter) it would have to be UF rated, and he had 6-3 UF at $2.60/ft

He said if I went to alluminum wire, it would be 2 size URD and it was around $1.54/ft.

Also priced #6 cable in individual strands and it was about $1/ft that way. That would mean to do it in individual strands it would cost about $4/ft as opposed to the all inclusive cable which is $2.60/ft. So, the all inclusive cable is cheaper than individual wires.
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Old 04-20-2011, 05:23 PM   #33
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Most wire is dual rated THHN / THWN these days

Below is a copper amperacity chart. You can use copper THWN #6 AWG for the 3 current carring conductors and #10 for the ground. You will need 2 ground rods at the garage.

Normal House Wiring Gauge
Consult your building inspector
because your location
will have a specific building code! Circuit
Maximum
Amperage Minimum COPPER
wire gage
15A 14AWG
20A 12AWG
30A 10AWG
45A 8AWG
60A 6AWG
80A 4AWG
100A 2AWG


I think he was sizing the AL wire at 100 amps, not 60 as you are planning.
IMO, going larger than 60 amps is overkill and a waste of money
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Old 04-20-2011, 08:23 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by rjniles View Post
Most wire is dual rated THHN / THWN these days

Below is a copper amperacity chart. You can use copper THWN #6 AWG for the 3 current carring conductors and #10 for the ground. You will need 2 ground rods at the garage.

Normal House Wiring Gauge
Consult your building inspector
because your location
will have a specific building code! Circuit
Maximum
Amperage Minimum COPPER
wire gage
15A 14AWG
20A 12AWG
30A 10AWG
45A 8AWG
60A 6AWG
80A 4AWG
100A 2AWG


I think he was sizing the AL wire at 100 amps, not 60 as you are planning.
IMO, going larger than 60 amps is overkill and a waste of money
So it sounds like I would need three strands of 6AWG and one strand of 10AWG. This is assuming I can actually run THHN/THWN type wire. Priced at Lowes, the 6AWG is about $.60/ft.

I'm still not sure whether or not I can run THHN/THWN or if it has to be UF. I looked through the NEC today trying to find a place where says, but I had no luck. If anybody is willing to check that out for me I would appreciate it. I am aware there are local codes as well, but I am oconcerned with the NEC at the moment.

In alluminum wire, Lowes had 2,2,2, but it was only 2 conductors and ground. If I used Aluminum wire, what size or description would I need?
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Old 04-20-2011, 10:16 PM   #35
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If you use aluminum THWN, you need #4 for the 3 current carrying conductors and 1 #8 for the ground.

You could use copper UF for the feeder as direct burial at 24 inch depth. The size would be 4-3 (#4 AWG, 3 conductor plus bare ground. As you see copper THWN has a greater amperacity than copper UF. THWN #6 vs UF #4 for the 60 amp feeder.
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Old 04-21-2011, 08:20 AM   #36
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While RJ has a good point about only needing 60A at the sub, I would look into using the Al 2-2-2-4 mobile home feeder for your run as it will be the most cost effective and allow for upping the feed to 90A if needed. It is rated as USE-2 so it can be direct buried or placed in conduit. Most lowes don't carry it, but HD does as well as most electrical suppliers.

As to your question about THHN/THWN, yes it can be placed in buried conduit. If you use 6/3 UF in conduit, you will find it to be difficult to pull because of its size (wide and flat).
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Old 04-21-2011, 08:35 AM   #37
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Before you direct bury mobile home feeder, read these posts:

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=44176

If you go with this product, use conduit to protect it.
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Old 04-21-2011, 09:28 AM   #38
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Before you direct bury mobile home feeder, read these posts:

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=44176

If you go with this product, use conduit to protect it.
I would agree, it's always better to use conduit when possible.
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Old 04-21-2011, 09:49 AM   #39
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Just called the same electrical supply house and asked if they carried 2,2,2,4 mobile home feeder. Yes, and it is $1.50/ft. This will probably be the most cost effective, and it will allow me to run a bigger breaker at the main panel - say 90amp. This would allow for future expansion.

Now I'm trying to figure out if it is within code to use it. I am not going to call my building inspector and ask. I don't want them to have any idea that I am even thinking about looking into this.

I wish there was some way that I could call them and see if I could use it, just to get the answer. If I call though, they know I am in the city limits and they are just going to tell me to not worry about it. They will tell me a licensed electrician has to do it anyway, so it doesn't concern me.
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Old 04-21-2011, 09:57 AM   #40
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If you are trying to sneak this in and do the work without a permit DON"T!! It is in your best interest to have the inspector approve what you are doing and how it is done.
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Old 04-21-2011, 10:10 AM   #41
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JSM

It is not the purpose of this forum to provide advice or encourage the willful violation of ordinances or permit requirements. I encourage you to call and discuss with an electrical inspector.


Doing un-permitted work can have many bad consequences

1 Unsafe electrical work

2 Insurance difficulties if you have a claim

3 Future home sale may be difficult if inspector finds un-permitted work.

Many localities (especially in Alabama) allow home owners to do this work.
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Old 04-21-2011, 10:10 AM   #42
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If you are trying to sneak this in and do the work without a permit DON"T!! It is in your best interest to have the inspector approve what you are doing and how it is done.
Oh trust me I plan on getting it done right, I am just trying to find out what needs to be done so I don't sound like an idiot when I actually do get a contractor to show up. It should be noted that I have put in calls to at least 10 electrical contractors over the past three weeks, and not yet have I gotten somebody to even come by and look at it.

I want to know what my options are in case they try to tell me something different.
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Old 04-21-2011, 02:09 PM   #43
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I drew up this illustration. If you guys don't mind, let me know if this is correct. I think I have everything correct.



EDIT Updated pic to show grounds I forgot to draw for the 12-2 NM wire.

Last edited by J S Machine; 04-21-2011 at 03:14 PM.
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Old 04-21-2011, 03:02 PM   #44
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Nice drawing JS. Presumably, the lights and outlets will be on grounded circuits as well? As I understand it, the neutral buss bar must NOT be bonded to the subpanel and you'll need additional grounding rods at the sub connected with a minimum of #6 copper. I sure someone with come by with the actual code application as I've already told you more than I know!
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Old 04-21-2011, 03:05 PM   #45
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Nice drawing JS. Presumably, the lights and outlets will be on grounded circuits as well? As I understand it, the neutral buss bar must NOT be bonded to the subpanel and you'll need additional grounding rods at the sub connected with a minimum of #6 copper. I sure someone with come by with the actual code application as I've already told you more than I know!
Yes you are correct. Knew I'd forget to add something. That is regular 12-2 romex type wire with 2 conductors (hot/neutral) and ground. I just forgot to draw the ground..lol

Just fixed that. New pic added with correct ground routing.


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