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jamiedolan 01-06-2009 11:30 PM

DIY Breaker Panel Install - Updated Photos
 
2 Attachment(s)
I cleaned up the panel a bit more tonight and added in some ties as Inphase had suggested. Also added in a 20a recept. next to the panel. I still have to add in some more conduit and drop in some more THHN.

Do the cable ties on the THHN look good?

(note to those that don't know, I did this entire panel install myself thanks in large part to the education I acquired from the kind professionals on this board)

Attachment 7131

Attachment 7132


Jamie

InPhase277 01-06-2009 11:47 PM

Jamie, that's a neater panel than I've seen alot of pros install:thumbsup:. I don't know that I would have chosen the same wire colors as you did, but hey, there's no code forbidding them either!

BTW, can I have your old Bulldog panel when you replace it?

Sparky8370 01-07-2009 12:06 AM

Yeah usually 120/240 or 120/208 colors are black, red, blue, white and 277/480 are brown, orange, yellow, gray. If you had multiple voltages at a building, you would have to label each panel with a color code and keep that code throughout the building. Not illegal, just something you want to avoid. Other than that it looks pretty good. Just support that pipe. Anything less than 18" doesn't have to be supported. Make sure you don't overfill those pipes. Most people think that if you have a "network" (2 hots and a neutral for single phase, 3 hots and a neutral for 3 phase) you don't have to count the neutral. They think that because it makes the most sense. But if you carefully read the code, you will see that you actually don't have to count it as a current carrying conductor if you have one neutral per hot. And I couldn't tell from the pics, but do you have more than one ground in each pipe? If so, that is illegal. It's technically a parallel ground. Just use a ground that covers the largest circuit. The only time you can have more than one ground in the pipe is if one is an isolated ground.
Also, you have wires crossing over the top of the panel. As of the 05 change that is illegal unless there is a barrier installed. Of course that would have to be a UL listed barrier designed and installed my the manufacturer. That is why most panel come with a ground and neutral bar in both sides, or a plastic barrier installed.
Also, looks like you have a number 6 or 8 neutral, what is that going to and is it in the 1/2" emt?

jamiedolan 01-07-2009 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InPhase277 (Post 208396)
Jamie, that's a neater panel than I've seen alot of pros install:thumbsup:. I don't know that I would have chosen the same wire colors as you did, but hey, there's no code forbidding them either!

BTW, can I have your old Bulldog panel when you replace it?

Sure, It's the Pushmatic (Is that the same as Bulldog?). I've given away a several of the 15A/20A breakers from the panel, but otherwise it's intact.

Dealing with the old panel / meter is going to be a difficult project. I'd like to move the service drop to the far end of the house so it does not go through my large tree. It's just going to be expensive because I'll need around 50' of copper to make the run, plus the cable from the drop from the mast. (over $500 just in wire last I checked).

Currently the service conductor is just SE cable the whole run, just staple to the house, no conduit, seems very common in this area. I'd like to run RMC from the mast head down to a meter, then to a small outdoor disconnect, then RMC inside where I would have to transition to EMT or ENT because RMC is so expensive.

There are days I think about just ripping out the pushmatic, and putting in ENT from my current meter to the new panel. I just don't really want to waste the money on the wire, when what I really want to do is move the service drop.

I thought about doing the change and using AL SE cable, I've never priced it out, but know it is cheaper than Copper THHN.

Jamie

nap 01-07-2009 12:13 AM

Now, do you want us to beat you up on it?


Just kidding. looks pretty good.

but.....

personally, I would have used an offset nipple on the quad recep like you did with the time clock. I also would use a raised cover like seen here: http://www.goodmart.com/products/1198136.htm

I hate using the plastic trim plates in the manner you have.

Just checking: is this a main or a sub panel. If main, are the ground and neut bonded?

jamiedolan 01-07-2009 12:25 AM

Yeah usually 120/240 or 120/208 colors are black, red, blue, white and 277/480 are brown, orange, yellow, gray. If you had multiple voltages at a building, you would have to label each panel with a color code and keep that code throughout the building. Not illegal, just something you want to

Yea, I realized that the color thing seems a little weird. I did read the "foot note" in the NEC about suggested colors. I have a system with the colors:

Orange - Regular 15A Circuits
Blue - MWBC 15A
Red - Regular 20A Circuits
Yellow - MWBC 20A

Makes it really easy to know what is a multiwire. But I do see how it would look weird.

avoid. Other than that it looks pretty good. Just support that pipe. Anything less than 18" doesn't have to be supported. Make sure you don't overfill those pipes. Most people think that if you have a "network" (2 hots

I need to go have a wire staple / clamp down day again and attack a number of wire and conduits around the house.

I did many MWBC to keep from having to derate below the normal Amp's for a wire. I think on one 3/4 conduit I might be up to 10 CCC in it, but it is less than 24" so should not have to be derated per the 24" or less nipple exemption (hope I understood that exemption properly).

and a neutral for single phase, 3 hots and a neutral for 3 phase) you don't have to count the neutral. They think that because it makes the most sense. But if you carefully read the code, you will see that you actually don't have to count it as a current carrying conductor if you have one

Yes, I have counted all neutrals in my calculations for derating.

neutral per hot. And I couldn't tell from the pics, but do you have more than one ground in each pipe? If so, that is illegal. It's technically a parallel ground. Just use a ground that covers the largest circuit. The only time you can have more than one ground in the pipe is if one is an isolated ground.

Thats good to know. I'll double check, but can't imagine why I would have run more than 1 ground in. I pull a wire out from the panel, then pig tail it for all the other grounds, and make a pig tails that I bond to the box.

Also, you have wires crossing over the top of the panel. As of the 05 change that is illegal unless there is a barrier installed. Of course that would have to be a UL listed barrier designed and installed my the manufacturer. That is why most panel come with a ground and neutral bar in both sides, or a plastic barrier installed.

Do you mean inside the panel that wire are not suppose to cross over? If so, how could it possiably be avoided with the ground and neutral bars on oppsite sides of the panel?

Also, looks like you have a number 6 or 8 neutral, what is that going to and is it in the 1/2" emt?

The white one on the left side? I just put that in tonight, that is a 8awg that is the factory connected neutral on my GFCI breaker for the hot tub. I wasn't sure I wanted to cut it shorter, since it doesn't look like you can replace it (looks moled into the breaker), so I ran it down to the bottom to keep it looking nice.

Thanks very much for all the information and review.

Jamie

jamiedolan 01-07-2009 12:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nap (Post 208407)
Now, do you want us to beat you up on it?


Just kidding. looks pretty good.

but.....

personally, I would have used an offset nipple on the quad recep like you did with the time clock. I also would use a raised cover like seen here: http://www.goodmart.com/products/1198136.htm

I hate using the plastic trim plates in the manner you have.

Just checking: is this a main or a sub panel. If main, are the ground and neut bonded?


Yes, Feel free to beat me up on anything you find wrong with it. :-)

Well I was going to an offset nipple... but, (yes, I despise the plastic covers as well in this setup) ever since metal flush face plate I have seen has a opening that is too narrow for GFCI outlets. It is just a little too tall and a little narrow. It is the size of the old decorator style outlets.

I put it away from the panel in this manner precisely because it would not have fit with the plastic cover plate I knew I was going to end up using.

I see that the cover you sent me the link to is made for the GFCI outlets. I was not able to find those at the big box stores.

I hate the plastic covers on the j-boxes in the ceiling also, but again double gang blank switch covers that mounted on the mud rings were not available. (I later found 4x4 box extension that I might buy and switch to then I could use a standard 4x4 cover on them. The only reason for the mud ring is to have the boxes legal in terms of fill limits. I really don't need the room in most of the boxes.)

I'm going to have to make a list of specialty cover I need and go to the electrical supply or place a order online.

It is setup as my main panel, but is not the service entrance, my old pushmatic is on the wall to the right of this, feeding this panel. The pushmatic just has one bar, where this panels neutral and ground connect. I also have my ground rods connected into the pushmatic via a #6 (I added in the ground rods in the fall, as none were present). The water line is bonded in the pushmatic as well.

Thanks

Jamie

nap 01-07-2009 01:06 AM

sounds like you have things well in hand. I would have done the conduit a bit differently but I don;t see any problem with your install over all.

and realize that #10, #12, and #14 are already derated by limiting the max size breaker that can be used. from what I can see, I don;t see any pipes that would require derating greater than that. Any pipes with more than 9 CCC in it?


sparky8370; got a citation for that barrier statement. Personally, I rarely have panels with dual ground bars and depending on the manuf of the panel, only a single neut bar. I'm not familiar with the requirement.

and the fill does not depend on current carrying conductors. Fill is fill. Derating is dependent on CCC.

and conduit support is 3 feet before secure fastening. up to 5 in certain situations.

rgsgww 01-07-2009 08:28 AM

Looking great!

Oh no! the receptacles are upside down, jk.

Reminds me of my panel...what a mess. I need to replace the romex connectors that were used for bx.

Stubbie 01-07-2009 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sparky8370 (Post 208403)
Also, you have wires crossing over the top of the panel. As of the 05 change that is illegal unless there is a barrier installed. Of course that would have to be a UL listed barrier designed and installed my the manufacturer. That is why most panel come with a ground and neutral bar in both sides, or a plastic barrier installed.
Also, looks like you have a number 6 or 8 neutral, what is that going to and is it in the 1/2" emt?

Never heard of the plastic barrier requirement is that something local? It looks like the neutral is the pigtail to that double pole gfci. You know I can't find anywhere where there is an issue with more than one ground in a conduit. I don't really know why you would want to run more than one but if you were running metal conduit like emt or rmc and were required to run an insulated ground you would be parallel with the metal conduit which is also going to be a ground return. Anyway I can't find where that is a code violation to have mulitple equipment grounds.

J. V. 01-07-2009 12:14 PM

Looks good Jamie. Just get rid of the plastic covers. No code issue, only appearance. I like your color coding. Make sure you put a note in the legend slot explaining your color scheme. The next guy will really appreciate.

Speedy Petey 01-07-2009 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sparky8370 (Post 208403)
Yeah usually 120/240 or 120/208 colors are black, red, blue, white and 277/480 are brown, orange, yellow, gray. If you had multiple voltages at a building, you would have to label each panel with a color code and keep that code throughout the building. Not illegal, just something you want to avoid. Other than that it looks pretty good. Just support that pipe. Anything less than 18" doesn't have to be supported. Make sure you don't overfill those pipes. Most people think that if you have a "network" (2 hots and a neutral for single phase, 3 hots and a neutral for 3 phase) you don't have to count the neutral. They think that because it makes the most sense. But if you carefully read the code, you will see that you actually don't have to count it as a current carrying conductor if you have one neutral per hot. And I couldn't tell from the pics, but do you have more than one ground in each pipe? If so, that is illegal. It's technically a parallel ground. Just use a ground that covers the largest circuit. The only time you can have more than one ground in the pipe is if one is an isolated ground.
Also, you have wires crossing over the top of the panel. As of the 05 change that is illegal unless there is a barrier installed. Of course that would have to be a UL listed barrier designed and installed my the manufacturer. That is why most panel come with a ground and neutral bar in both sides, or a plastic barrier installed.
Also, looks like you have a number 6 or 8 neutral, what is that going to and is it in the 1/2" emt?

The barrier issue is news to me too. Never heard of it.

"Parallel ground"???? So what?
Again, news to me. I'd love to see the code citation to support that one.

The neutral of a multi-wire circuit does not count with regard to derating purposes. It DOES however count with regard to conduit fill.

kgphoto 01-07-2009 12:23 PM

Looks nice and clean.

Anyone have a question regarding the advisability of the zip ties? Does this call into account heat de-rating, although there is a lot of room in that panel?

Code here now requires a list identifying all the circuits, not just labels on the wires themselves.

Speedy Petey 01-07-2009 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kgphoto (Post 208674)

Code here now requires a list identifying all the circuits, not just labels on the wires themselves.

Code has always required circuits be labeled.

jamiedolan 01-07-2009 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speedy Petey (Post 208665)
The neutral of a multi-wire circuit does not count with regard to derating purposes. It DOES however count with regard to conduit fill.


Do you know where this is in the code? I am not trying to challenge you at all, I just want to see what I missed.

The way I had read everything was that all current carrying conductors must be included for derating. The neutral on a MWBC ends up carrying current. So there must be some exemption that I missed.

I had been filling to a maximum of 3 MWBC (6 circuits) for a total of 9 CCC, but I included the neutral in my calculations.

Jamie


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