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DIY 200A main service upgrade?

12K views 54 replies 18 participants last post by  YerDugliness 
#1 ·
Hi, I need to upgrade my 100A service to 200A. I have already a 4/0 aluminum line feeding my 20 circut main box.

I have been trying to get an estimate to have my line upgraded to 200A by simply having an electrician to come out and swap out the fuse box for a 40 slot 200A rated box and maybe also swap the meter if need be (maybe some additional grounding work is needed).

All in all I was hoping to save money since I already have 200A rated line in place, but I havenet been able to get an estimate for the work requested, I am getting a feeling that no one here in virginia is trying to bother unless its a $2500 brand new line drop 200A upgrade.

So, my question is, since I already have the permit for a new service install, can I have the POCO turn my power off for a day while I swap out the fuse box, and then have the POCO boost my output to 200A, then have the county inspector come and inspect the work....is this feasible?? I just cant get anyone to come do this for me...

Thanks for your time in advance.

Philip.
 
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#2 ·
P_S, There are many things a homeowner/DIY'er can do. An electrical service upgrade is not one of them. You might have the right size wire to the panel, but there are so many other things that have to be considered. Grounding, panel location, which circuits to use GFIs for, are AFCIs required in your area, are these the right gauge wires to feed the loads they're supplying, etc.? Plus, the EC that you choose will have the job done in less than a day, a service upgrade is a big job. You may spend more money with an EC, but you won't lose sleep wondering if everything you did was safe. pete
 
#8 ·
P_S, There are many things a homeowner/DIY'er can do. An electrical service upgrade is not one of them.
That is not true in many areas. I did my own. You will obviously want to be completely sure of what you are doing before trying.

When I did mine I mounted the new panel next to the old one in the basement. Ran the conduit through the wall up to a new meter box and on up to a new weather head. Wired that up with the correct gauge wire. The POCO and Building Department were both more than happy to tell me what I needed to use and how to wire it. Of course I had already research how to do it correctly so this was more of a confirmation step.
 
#3 ·
Problem is that I am not able to even get an estimate for someone to come out and replace the fusebox; meter; inspect ground.

As far as the job I do not see anything besides the meter and the ground that I would need anyone to come and do it for me.

All my fuses and other wiring is up to code.
 
#4 ·
P_S, Ask them for an estimate for the complete upgrade (get a couple of estimates). There's a lot of liability in only doing part of the job and most ECs don't want to take that risk. Since I don't live in VA. I can't even say what the local rules and regs are. Here in Nassau County NY, only a licensed electrician can do a service upgrade. Pros make it look easy, I'd rather be safe than sorry.
 
#5 ·
Ok, complete upgrade range is between $2000 and $2700 from a couple of places... here in virginia I am allowed to do a service upgrade and I have already gotten a permit for the work.

I guess I will keep looking for someone to do the upgrade without dropping a new line, since I already have the correct size wire feeding my 100A service already.

Thanks for the input, maybe I need to try to find a desperate for work licensed small time electrician:)
 
#6 ·
I think you could do it yourself!

I wouldn't have any idea what type of codes or regulations you might have to satisfy in your area, but I have a story similar to yours that will illustrate why I think you could accomplish the task yourself.

I needed to upgrade from overhead 100 amp service to 200 amp service, thought I could do so with just a change of transformer at the pole and a new set of heavier gauge wires from the pole to my current "gooseneck" on my house. Well, the new wires would have been too heavy for the existing structure, so I had to go underground.

The electrician took 5 weeks to get to my house, but really the only thing I needed him for was to operate his ditcher for the underground service wire, which has to be larger for 200 amp underground service than would be necessary for 200 amp overhead service.

So, it went this way--June 12 the REA set a new pole along my property line in the alley and provided me with 150' of 0000 (4/0) wire. The meter box on the pole had to be fitted with a meter capable of passing 200 amps (apparently the old one was not), so I now have a digital meter rather than one of the old type with the ring that turns as electricity goes through it. Below the meter on the box was a panel door and behind that door was a 200 amp main breaker and TWO 200-amp capacity taps.

The electrician really did very little other than operate that ditcher and backhoe. His helper did all the sheathing of the wire with "carlon", a grey tube that provides above ground protection to the wires, put the new LB fitting on the house, and laid the new 4/0 wires into the new ditch. While the electrician was on the phone, the helper got the 4/0 wires into the panel below the meter and into the house through the LB fitting. We strung that 4/0 wire to the new service panel, the electrician did absolutely nothing more than get the wires into the correct lugs and tighten them down with a large allen wrench device. Service to the house was complete to the 200 amp inlet breaker on the service panel, I did all the transfer of wires from the old 100 amp/10 circuit breaker box to the new 200 amp/40 circuit breaker box. It was not difficult and the electrician looked at everything I did and sprinkled it with holy water.

Really, with a bit of diswashing soap (needed that to get those 3 huge wires to go through the LB fitting) I could have done everything myself except for the 106' of ditch. The electrical requirements for the wiring to the house, which were somewhat dependent on the length of the run, were worked out before hand by the electrician and the representative of the REA.

I was well prepared for the electrician when he arrived, had the old panel unbolted from the wall and hanging by the wires, still attached, and the new panel bolted in place on the wall, ready for the new service line feed.

All in all, though, even though I really did do a bunch of work on my own, the cost of the electrical upgrade (NOT counting the cost of the 52' of 6 gauge wires needed for the electrical HWOD unit or the cost of the HWOD, itself) was in the $2,000 range, and the REA only charged me $75 for the 150' of 4/0 wiring ( the difference between the cost of 150' of the smaller wire that would have been adequate had I been able to use overhead service compared to the cost of 150' of the larger wire necessary for the underground service). Had I had to pay for that 135 feet of 4/0 wire (we had 15 feet left over), who knows how much that would have run????? Expensive? I suspect so.

In the end, I felt that with the considerable research and knowledge I had pursued before I started this project, I was capable of doing all the work I did, and the electrician was quite complimentary as to the quality of my work.

I must admit, though, that at times I really was a bit skeptical, mainly over safety issues, but the electrician was absolutely thrilled when he got there to find the two 6-gauge (6/3 w/ground) circuits for the HWOD unit already pulled and the HWOD unit plumbed in and connected to the new breaker box. Apparently they don't like to do the dirty work, I didn't care, I had 5 damned weeks to get ready for them when they told me they would be there in 2 weeks :censored: !!

I know that after watching him and what he did, I think that next time I upgrade service I will rent a ditcher (I bet I wouldn't have had to wait 5 weeks to get the ditcher delivered!!) and have a go at it myself. Our REA is quite helpful and had I been willing to tackle this by myself this first time the REA was willing to get the correct size wire to me, no need for me to hire an electrician according to them!

Dugly :cool:
 
#9 · (Edited)
Thank you! I think I will do more research, because I feel like this is actually simple work, I wil just have to coordinate with the POCO for the power switch, County for inspections and then make sure the ground is good and meter is running, thats all. Thanks again.
I respect your interest and ability to want to do this as I have a similar situation myself. Some on this board jump right to "call an electrician", others whom I respect will walk you thru what is necessary as this is a DIY site. In HS many, many years ago I learned in electric shop what was required of a service entrance panel and wired a demo house myself as part of the class project. I have been handling my own and immediate families electrical needs for over 30 years.

Can you do it? Sure if you respect electricity, research and understand all of what you are doing, know what tools to use and how to use them and are allowed in your jurisdiction.

My situation is a 4/0 AL underground feeder piped to an exterior 200a meterbox. My incoming SE cable is 2/0 aluminum to a 150A 1969 20 circuit Murray panel in my basement. So, I already have the 4/0 feed to the meter, the meterbox is stamped 200A on the outside so I would only need to replace the cable from meter to panel (about 2~3 feet) with 4/0 AL or change to copper or conduit and individual conductors.

Soon I will be purchasing a new panel (Siemens 200A-40 looks good to me) and I am currently planning a good time to make the change and arrange the elec. inspection. In my county it is done by independent inspection agencies.

Knowledge is power- you will be amazed at how much you can save by DIY with the proper knowledge!
 
#11 · (Edited)
I'm an electrician pls don't do a service upgrade if your looking for info on a website An electrician when changing a panel and putting his name on permit is responsible for the whole thing. and if you ran the wire wrong hes going to have to redo it anyway. ie how far did you space the straps?,is the weather head above or below the stick pin ,what are you using for bugs? and when changing a service Electricians do it live the power company does not shut down and I doubt they will for you. pls pls pls don't do it yourself I wouldn't let most 4th yr apprentices do it let alone home owner.
 
#15 ·
I'm an electrician pls don't do a service upgrade if your looking for info on a website An electrician when changing a panel and putting his name on permit is responsible for the whole thing. and if you ran the wire wrong hes going to have to redo it anyway. ie how far did you space the straps?,is the weather head above or below the stick pin ,what are you using for bugs? and when changing a service Electricians do it live the power company does not shut down and I doubt they will for you. pls pls pls don't do it yourself I wouldn't let most 4th yr apprentices do it let alone home owner.
Hi, sorry if I sounded a bit confused at first, it is only because you ussually get a lot of different opinions on these threads and I wanted to be as polite as possible to people who took the time to respond.:jester:

I would just like to mention that I am a skilled mechanic and a craftsman. Really *not* worried about turning out grade A work for myself, I do not spare time or money (on parts that is:). As long as I can work out all the variables in this install and get everything inspected, I see no reason why I should pay anyone to do the work that I can do myself. Here in virginia I can do this job with a permit. Work has to be inspected by a master electrician.

Here is my deal, I am doing a tankless waterheater installation for the new spa I am putting in the basement, I need more spaces in the fuse box and naturally a higher output to my house, because the whirlpool and the steam generator require 30A and 70A breakers respectively.

What rating service I have now is still a mistery to me, I called the POCO and they said they need to send a tech ($200) to see what kind of service I am pulling (they are not sure), they said, look at the fusebox. House is late 70's. I have an underground service line which attaches to the meter (reads 300A on the face, not sure yet about how to determine if it will handle 200A or not). Then from the meter, I have a 4/0 18 strand AL wire going to the lugs in the box. The box is stamped that its rated from 100 to 200A (havent looked at the fuses yet to see if they have a rating on them).

I think I am determined now to do this on my own, because I work fulltime and have zero ability to take off from work for people to come here or cancel on me or have to come back and redo it. Also, from the estimates that I have received I think I would be throwing my money away. I mean if I had an overhead connection and all other kinds of complications, then I would pay someone, but in my situation I think I have a way out.
In any case.

I think this job is very manageable and doable. The box is inside my house with vey easy access and enough slack for all the wires. I have the correct size feed wire 4/0 AL. I see two separate grounds leading to the two poles outside in the ground(not sure about the waterpipe connection but I will find out). My meter may be rated for 200A service (I will find out). Essentially if I can reuse the meter and there is proper grounding for the line, all I am doing is turning the power off and swapping the box, inspection and then telling the POCO to increase the output. As far as I can tell so far in my pre-plan is that all I have to do is:

*check if the meter is 200A rated;
*check the two ground rod connections and the waterpipe ground;
*disconnect the power (I read that this can be done from the meter box);
*swap the box and replace connections/fuses;
*inspection;
*increase thruput to 200A.

Thank you for all the input! Any thoughts? I will take pics and post once I begin and get some of these questions sorted out, maybe this will help someone down the line.
Philip.
 
#12 ·
I will say that as a building codes inspector, I see a lot of really scary DIY service upgrades. That being said, there is NO REASON that a competent person cannot do their research and produce a top notch job.

Where it gets scary is things like landing both phase conductors of a multiwire branch circuit under the same phase in the panel. I don't care how many books you read and research you do...Something like that has to be explained to most people while they're standing in front of a panel. The bad thing is that it won't jump out to you until the neutral is burning up in the middle of the night.

The good thing is that you'll have to pull a permit. Be honest with the inspector and let him know that you're not a pro, and you'd appreciate a really thorough check of your work.
 
#13 ·
While I didn't do an upgrade, I did install a 200A new construction. KC is right, talk to your inspector. I did the same, not that I hadn't done my research, but I wanted to know what he was looking for. Assuming you have an inspector that cares about your project and safety, they should be able to answer all your questions. If you don't understand ask more questions and/or start reading. It's not rocket science....but it is a deadly task...and not done correctly it can cost you your life.

When you get ready to start, and you get that "funny little feeling" like you shouldn't do this...step away and reassess things before proceeding. Other than that...knock your self out, take your time...and for god's sake do it right the first time.

Folks here like pictures, lots of pictures. Take and post some before starting, and I'm certain you'll get all sorts of suggestions before you start. Good luck and stay safe!
 
#14 ·
If you want to swap out the panel yourself, start by getting the power company out to take a look. Tell them what you want to do. Let us know what they say. Ask them to double check your wire size.

Is your service overhead or underground? Is your existing grounding wire attached to ground rods or water pipe or both? Are the existing 4/0 wires in the panel long enough to reach the lugs in the new 200A panel? Do the 4/0 wires actually fit in the lugs in the existing panel?

I have never seen a existing 100A service with 4/0 wires in the panel. But that's just me.
 
#21 · (Edited)
Also, can I cut the seal on the meter and take a look at the connections inside? Is this legal, what will the POCO do if I do this?
I have seen many a cut tag on a meter as I live in a suburb where it didn't really matter unless there was concern of stealing. If so, the poco would place a steel strapped lock on it, not just a tag. I have pulled my own meter as well and know exactly how the inside looks. My entire neighborhood had meters replaced from analog to digital a few years ago and the techs didn't bother with tags. You may also realize in my seperate meter box situation, pulling the meter disconnects the panel.

My (non-formal) understanding is as long as you are not stealing electric, they would not have a case to prosecute you for that. :whistling2:

By the way, the poco doen't follow the NEC so what gauge feeders supply your house is up to the poco rules, not the NEC.
 
#17 · (Edited)
Philip, if your panel is already rated for 200 amp, as well as your service cable and meter then it may be as simple as replacing your main breaker with a 200 amp breaker but I can't imagine why anyone would have put in essentially 200 amp service and only a 100 amp breaker. You can just add a subpanel for additional circuits.

Are you sure your main breaker is 100 amp? The more you describe it the more it sounds like you already have 200 amp service. Do you really have fuses or do you have breakers? Every breaker I've seen has the amp rating clearly marked it. You should be able to determine your main breaker rating in about 2 seconds.
 
#18 ·
Ok, I have 20 breakers and 2 fuses where the 4/0 AL attaches to the lugs. Fuses are red but I have not looked at their rating yet since I have to pull the power for the house to get a look. I would love to be able to pull a subpanel into the spa instead of getting a new main panel and still having to probably pull a sub-box into there.:thumbup:
 
#19 ·
Actually this brings up a question...is the difference between a 200A service and 100A service just essentially the type of main fuses installed? (lets assume we are not worried about the meter, wire Ga or anything else that cant support 200A). I mean does the POCO actually increase the Amp output to my house or is the actual rating dependent on the Amps my wires can handle, the fuses installed and proper ground? SO if I try to pull 150A worth of load on a 100A rated line, the fuses will blow and thats it (the wires will get hot too)...but you get the jist of my question...thanks
 
#20 ·
Actually this brings up a question...is the difference between a 200A service and 100A service just essentially the type of main fuses installed? (lets assume we are not worried about the meter, wire Ga or anything else that cant support 200A). I mean does the POCO actually increase the Amp output to my house or is the actual rating dependent on the Amps my wires can handle, the fuses installed and proper ground? SO if I try to pull 150A worth of load on a 100A rated line, the fuses will blow and thats it (the wires will get hot too)...but you get the jist of my question...thanks
Everything would need to be rated for 200 amps including the underground feed from the POCO. When I switched from 100A to 200Amp I needed to upgrade all the way to the weatherhead (overhead service) but the POCO used their existing lines because they met their requirements. That may or may not be the case for your underground feed. The POCO should be able to tell you that.
 
#22 ·
^^^
Right, it’s a blue plastic tag with a wire running through both sides of it that essentially locks the meter. I need to remove it to look inside and see what gauge feeds go to it, I mean I already have 4/0 from meter to box, *can the wire guage be less in the drop from the conduit to the meter?* I hope not, and if not, then I don’t really need to look inside the meter unless I have to swap the box and disconnect the power to the box that way. So if I were to cut that tag I dont want to get into trouble.
 
#24 ·
Right, just read on their site that they will prosecute for tampering and try to levy fines and whatnot because they are affraid that I cut the tag earlier and been stealin power, so not gonna do it.

Also it says that they will gladly cut the power upon request and reinstate on the same day for $20.
 
#25 ·
Do not cut the seal on the meter. Do not pull the meter yourself. This can be very dangerous.

Can you take a picture of the panel and post it? Also, take a picture of the meter box.

In my area all underground services installed over the last 25 years have been required to have 200A meter boxes. The meter itself will handle the 200 amps. The power companies only concern would be whether their transformer and wires will handle the 200 amp. Most likely they will. If so they will change nothing on their end. The power company does not increase the power to your house. The demand on your end determines how much power is pulled from the power company. If you pull to much, your main breaker or fuses will open. If they don't, the power companies fuse on the primary of the transformer will open. These devices protect the wires and the equipment connected.

The main circuit breaker or fuses determines the capacity of the service. They are sized for the wires and equipment they are protecting. 4/0 aluminum wire is large enough for 200 amps. The grounding wire running to the ground rods needs to be a #6 copper wire.

You are getting quite a bit of confusing information on this thread. You will need to sort it out as to what you actually need to know. This is a do-able project as you have explained it so far. Posting some pictures would be very helpful. The meter can and the panel with the fuses and lugs.
 
#29 · (Edited)
I am getting confused. Why would you want to change the fuses? I thought you wanted to swap the panel for a 200 amp 40 space new panel.

The meter enclosure looks like a 200 amp can from here.

Can you find a label in the panel giving the rating of the existing panel? What is the brand of your existing panel? At this point I am leaning toward recommending installing a 100 amp sub panel to your existing panel.
 
#30 ·
John, I agree, I would like to install a subpanel instead, the extra power is going to the laundry/bathroom area anyways. I do not see anythything with a name or a rating in the box, except a black stamp that reads : Rated 101 - 200A. Also I have two red fuses in the lug disconnect part and they read 150A.

So how would I facilitate the switch to 200A? (can I draw 225A from the 4/0 AL or is it stretching it?). I can run a sub no problem, but not sure how to handle the increase in the line Amperage through the POCO. I already have all pertinent permits and can call a county inspector anytime. thanks in advance.
 
#34 ·
For a sub panel you would install a new breaker in your main panel to feed the sub panel. Then install your new circuits in the sub panel along with the 2 you displace from the main panel to install the sub panel breaker. The sub panel can be installed next to the existing panel or in a new location.

You are not thinking correctly on your total amps. Adding up all the circuit breakers has nothing to do with the actual load on the service. And it's the actual load that counts. 150 amps is plenty for most houses unless they are "all electric" houses.
 
#31 ·
If you look very carefully at the meter, on the left side about center it says 'CL200'. That means it's a class 200 meter, good for 200 amps. The next step down is class 100. The next step up is class 320.

That doesn't mean that the POCO feeders are 200 amp though. I do a considerable amount of traffic signal work, typically the main is 60 amp, the POCO feeds it with a #4 aluminum URD, and they install a class 200 meter.

The 4/0 aluminum between the meter and panel is indeed 200 amp wire. for the panel to be listed as an assembly, the bus rating must be at least as high as the largest fuse that can be installed in the main disconnect. That would be 200 amp. (110 amp through 200 amp fuses all have the same frame sizes).

What it comes down to is this; your system from the meter to and including the panel is very likely good for 200 amps. The POCO feeder might not be. I don't know about your area, but around here if you load a service that has the original main breaker (or fuses), and it burns the POCO equipment up, they'll fix it for free. If you modify the main, it's your nickel.

You might be able to call them and find out what they have on record as the service ampacity. If they think it's a 200 amp service, then I would have no problem replacing the 150's with 200's. If they think it's a 150, you still can change the fuses, but if their stuff burns up.......

Rob
 
#32 ·
Understood. I have to call them in anycase, just that when i called them last time they had no idea and said that they would have to schedule an 'appointment' to drop by for a tune of $200.:furious:

So from looking at the pictures and info i provided, is this a 150A service then?
 
#33 ·
Understood. I have to call them in anycase, just that when i called them last time they had no idea and said that they would have to schedule an 'appointment' to drop by for a tune of $200.:furious:

So from looking at the pictures and info i provided, is this a 150A service then?
Yes. Things on your end appear to be set for the maximum of 200 A. Having 150 A fuses in your main makes it a 150 A service currently. If everything on the utility end of it is rated 200 A, then you switching to 200 A fuses would make your service a 200.
Maybe you're asking yourself, 'why does it have 150 A fuses, and not 200, if it's capable of 200 A??' Just because wiring, equipment, etc. is rated for a maximum amount of current doesn't mean you have to have that much going through it. You can always have less.
 
#36 ·
I agree ,if everyone can do it we wouldn`t be electricians, electricity is not like plumbing, were if a pipe breaks things get wet and replaced if needed ,If your house burns down while your family is in there ,well i think you know where i `am going ,you would never forgive your self and like if we do something wrong your insured
 
#50 ·
Jerry that is amazing, Now I might actually have to buy one with the PC hookup! I have a cheap clamp meter I bought a while ago on ebay and and as cheap as it is its worked perfectly every time. I have a tendency to do some rather large holiday lights displays in the winter here and the clamp meter is a MUST to balance out all the various loads. I have a distribution box that I built a while ago that has a 4 pole relay inside, with several 20 amp outlets on the outside. Balancing out the loads not just so that each outlet/contact only has up to 20-22 amps, but that I have it balanced out in the main panel as well. I tripped the 100 amp main a few times because I didn't quite have it balanced out and had one leg overloaded. I was nearly maxing out the 100 amp service into the house, when the weather warmed up, the lights would turn on and trip the breaker.

That TED device would be nice to monitor the power being consumed at any given time of the day and to better determine where all the power is going (electric bill is usually over 200 a month, with all gas appliances).
 
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