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Old 09-17-2011, 12:55 PM   #1
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Dishwasher Install


First...I am not a licensed electrician, but I do have more than a few years of industrial wiring under my belt.That said here is my question:
I am doing a new install of a new dishwasher. I have room in the breaker box for a new breaker, and the total amperage of the existing circuits leaves me enough amperage (still less than 80% of the main breaker) for the addition of the manufacturer suggested 15 amp circuit. I have checked with the local permit board, and have been told no permit is required to install this dedicated circuit.I feel like I'm good to go so far. I guess that the question is really here...The customer insisted on buying the supplies herself, using my shopping list. She did well, except in her choice of wire. I specified exterior rated 12/2 romex type cable, which she apparently could not find(or the price wowed her) and instead bought type NM-B which I know is interior rated stuff. The install is in a mobile home with the thick black 'celotex' type board beneath the joists. If I remove the insulating boad and intal my cable, will that qualify as 'interior' usage? The board will be replaced after everything is in and tested. There will be no UV exposure, and the temps do not exceed the rating of the cable. She has left town for two months, and is pretty much incommunicado, so I cannot get the reciept for the cable to return and replace. Nor can I afford to replace it on my dime. The mobile home is highly unlikely to be moved, as it's on a permanent foundation.
Am I tempting fate, or will the NMB suffice?

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Old 09-17-2011, 01:54 PM   #2
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You are not a licensed electricain but you are doing an installation in other than your own residence?

Most people use the brand name Romex for the specific type cable NM.Same thing.

A 15 amp circuit only requires 14-2 NMB.

NMB is fine installed in the location you describe, you will probably find the home manufacturer used the same product.

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Old 09-17-2011, 03:10 PM   #3
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Dishwasher Install


rj, thanks for your timely reply. Indeed, I'm not licensed, and working on another' residence. All parties involved are aware of, and agreeable to the license issue. I live in a small retirement community, most of us are on a fixed, and pretty much meager income. We're the ones that didn't plan ahead...it is what it is. A lot of us are retired tradesmen, and pool our years of experience to keep each other going. There is no remuneration for these services...we're on a barter system here, pretty much. The lady I'm doing the install for is a retired nurse who helps care for my wife. The park's manager is married to a retired Licensed Res and Ind Electrician, but he's blind now. I'm sure his license is out of date, as he lost his vision about ten years ago. He's listened to my plan, and offered a couple of points of refinement. We're going 12 guage, in case of a later upgrade, but I'm using a 14g hook up for the final connection, hence the 15A breaker. If upgraded only the pigtail and breaker will need replaced.
Guess I'm just lookin' for a second opinion. One blind electrician an me =about 3/4 of a licencensed Pro, but, the local'contractors' gouge and do shoddy work.
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Old 09-17-2011, 03:27 PM   #4
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Dishwasher Install


I don't think this would necessarily apply, but here is what 550.15 says about wiring.

(H) Under-Chassis Wiring (Exposed to Weather). Where
outdoor or under-chassis line-voltage (120 volts, nominal,
or higher) wiring is exposed to moisture or physical damage,
it shall be protected by rigid metal conduit or intermediate
metal conduit, except as provided in (1) or (2). The
conductors shall be suitable for wet locations.
(1) Where closely routed against frames and equipment
enclosures, reinforced thermosetting resin conduit
(RTRC) listed for aboveground use, Type MI cable,
electrical metallic tubing, or rigid polyvinyl chloride
conduit (PVC) shall be permitted.
(2) Where extending vertically from a direct-burial depth
of at least 457 mm (18 in.) below grade and terminated
to a factory-installed conduit or enclosure, Schedule 80
PVC or RTRC listed for exposure to physical damage.
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Old 09-17-2011, 03:34 PM   #5
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Dishwasher Install


read that Jim...and there will be no frame contact...cables gonna go through 2x6 wooden joists and wooden floors. And no exposure. Good point though.
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Old 09-17-2011, 03:49 PM   #6
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Dishwasher Install


Quote:
Originally Posted by mickey cassiba View Post
about ten years ago. He's listened to my plan, and offered a couple of points of refinement. We're going 12 guage, in case of a later upgrade, but I'm using a 14g hook up for the final connection, hence the 15A breaker. If upgraded only the pigtail and breaker will need replaced.
Guess I'm just lookin' for a second opinion.
I would use all #12 in case it is not you that upgrades it. If i opened a plug and saw #12 wire I would assume it is all #12, it wouldn't cross my mind that there is #14 pigtail on the circuit.
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Old 09-17-2011, 04:24 PM   #7
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Use the Romex/NM-B, call it a day.
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Old 09-17-2011, 10:23 PM   #8
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Micky.,

You can go with standard 12-2 NM cablé that will be not a issue as long it is not exposed to outdoor as you stated.

I don't know if I did oversighted or not .,, Are you plan to use the simple disconnecting means like a surface mounted junction box with toggle switch which it will serve the purpose of disconnect means if this dishwasher is hardwired. { Cord et plug is differernt matter that will take care of it on own }

Just wondering a quick question what brand breaker box and do you have plenty room in there { I know many mobile homes I dealt back in state side they genrally don't have much room on older one unless the panel was replaced }


Merci,
Marc
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Old 09-17-2011, 10:46 PM   #9
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Dishwasher Install


Underneath,exposed,worry about rodent damage to nm.
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Old 09-17-2011, 11:09 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by frenchelectrican View Post
Micky.,

You can go with standard 12-2 NM cablé that will be not a issue as long it is not exposed to outdoor as you stated.

I don't know if I did oversighted or not .,, Are you plan to use the simple disconnecting means like a surface mounted junction box with toggle switch which it will serve the purpose of disconnect means if this dishwasher is hardwired. { Cord et plug is differernt matter that will take care of it on own }

Just wondering a quick question what brand breaker box and do you have plenty room in there { I know many mobile homes I dealt back in state side they genrally don't have much room on older one unless the panel was replaced }


Merci,
Marc
plenty of room in the box...and only 65 amps out of 100 A service in use. I feel safe there. Plug on the end of the armored flex so disconnect is covered as well, if I read code right.
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Old 09-17-2011, 11:10 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobelectric View Post
Underneath,exposed,worry about rodent damage to nm.
The wire will be re covered with the insulating board after install
roaches maybe but rodents not likely
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Old 09-17-2011, 11:13 PM   #12
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Dishwasher Install


Quote:
Originally Posted by mickey cassiba View Post
plenty of room in the box...and only 65 amps out of 100 A service in use. I feel safe there. Plug on the end of the armored flex so disconnect is covered as well, if I read code right.
You have a cord cap/plug on the end of a piece of armored flex?
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Old 09-18-2011, 07:09 AM   #13
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Quote:
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You have a cord cap/plug on the end of a piece of armored flex?
Not at this point...that's a point I'm not clear on. I was planning to hard wire the flex whip to the JB at the DW. My 'mentor' seems to remember that if the breaker isn't lockable(it is), or in sight of the DW (it isn't) that there must be a way to disconnect at the unit. Could use a little clarification on that point.
Thanks
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Old 09-18-2011, 07:12 AM   #14
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Install a receptacle in the back of the dishwasher space and install a rated appliance cord on the DW.
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Old 09-18-2011, 07:25 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rjniles View Post
Install a receptacle in the back of the dishwasher space and install a rated appliance cord on the DW.
Is it safe to have a 'plastic' cord under a movable appliance( hook up is on the unit is in front on bottom)?
Y'all please remember, if I gen a little off tangent... most of my experience is industrial. Movable machinery required armored cabling according to my inspector at the factory.

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Last edited by mickey cassiba; 09-18-2011 at 07:28 AM. Reason: added a little background
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