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Old 10-07-2011, 06:50 PM   #1
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Dishwasher on GFCI, help please


Hello All,
I need a little help in answering a few questions:

I recently installed a new dishwasher in my Inlaws home (older). There are no grounds available and I ended up having to put the dishwasher on a circuit (15amp) that also has two new ceiling fans (no lights) and a hall light.

1) I know it should be on a dedicated circuit but none are available. The dishwasher draws 6amps total(1.5pump, 4.5 heater) whereas the two fans/hall light will draw no more than 4amps total. So the max should be no more than 10amps on the 15amp circuit.

2) There was no ground available, so I installed a GFCI recepticle and 5ft 14/3 plug cord for the dishwasher. From initial research and interaction on another forum this seemed to be an acceptable alternative. However, some others chimed in saying they don't feel it is NEC compliant as per article 250.114. Whereas article 406.3, specifically (D) (3) (b), seems to allow "alternative". You can go HERE for the exact code, or HERE as advice given by an NEC consultant for an electrical magazine.

Quote:
WIRING ALTERNATIVES
FOR "TWO WIRE" (NON GROUNDED)
ELECTRICAL SYSTEMS


(b) A non–grounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with a
ground-fault circuit interrupter-type of receptacle(s). These receptacles shall be marked
“No Equipment Ground.” (as I did)
3) Lastly. This may be unrelated or tied in some how. My inlaws are in town and ran the dishwasher twice and each time it tripped the GFCI at some point during heating. It doesn't trip the 15amp breaker or affect anything else. Is this a sign the GFCI may be defective or some possible short in the dishwasher as it was a display model? I ran direct power during installation and a full cycle with no issues, but did not test after putting in the GFCI.

Thanks, Ralph

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Last edited by Ralph III; 10-07-2011 at 06:56 PM.
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Old 10-07-2011, 08:52 PM   #2
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Dishwasher on GFCI, help please


The codes requires dishwashers to be used on grounded circuits. Installing a GFI does not meet that requirement.

You can add a subpanel for more breaker space. It may not be easy but your option is no DW or add circuit spaces.

Ungrounded circuits should not be extended.

Your cord is too long according to the code.

If the GFI trips it is protecting someone from a possible shock hazard. Your heating element may have been damaged while it was a demo unit.

I would hardly say that anyone told you this was acceptable on the other forum. You seem to want to continue despite all the issues that were pointed out.

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Old 10-08-2011, 12:30 AM   #3
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Dishwasher on GFCI, help please


Quote:
quote=Jim Port: "The codes requires dishwashers to be used on grounded circuits. Installing a GFI does not meet that requirement."
So you can say for certainty there is no exception and NEC article 406.3 isn't an "alternative" or othewise not applicable?


Quote:
quote=Jim Port: "You can add a subpanel for more breaker space. It may not be easy but your option is no DW or add circuit spaces."
Yes, but I will opt to run a ground wire back to the panel box instead. That will be very difficult but as I have pretty much already decided, even before posting here. I just wanted one more professional opinion to that effect....


Quote:
quote=Jim Port: "Your cord is too long according to the code."
The cord was a Lowes heavy appliance 5ft cord that I cut down to 54", which was within the specs of the dw manufacturer. I see NEC 422.16 (b) (2) states 3-4ft so will correct if I keep the cord. It also appears to state if "double insulated" then no ground plug is required as an "exception". THIS article references that code and does seem to support that as indeed an allowance (second paragraph, last sentence). Once more, you're certain there are no exceptions? What is your qualification Jim?


Quote:
quote=Jim Port: "If the GFI trips it is protecting someone from a possible shock hazard. Your heating element may have been damaged while it was a demo unit."
I will test the GFCI first, but yes this is a concern that will be addressed.


Quote:
quote=Jim Port: "I would hardly say that anyone told you this was acceptable on the other forum. You seem to want to continue despite all the issues that were pointed out."
Jim, I was the one who raised the issues! I've done construction all my life as my Dad was an Engineer and Contractor (50+ years). I've remodeled and sold numerous homes of my own and currently have rental property. I've installed many dishwashers but all have been standard 12/2/g wiring (newer construction). I don't do crap jobs and this will be done correctly also, period. I got conflicting information, came across conflicting articles and seemingly conflicting NEC code. Do you always pre-suppose people are lying and that no poor advice has ever been uttered?


God Bless

Last edited by Ralph III; 10-08-2011 at 12:44 AM.
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Old 10-08-2011, 09:02 AM   #4
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Dishwasher on GFCI, help please


Using a GFCI receptacle as you describe is OK but that doesn't mean you can use is any place you want to.

I think you need to read NEC 250.114(3)

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Old 10-08-2011, 12:25 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a7ecorsair View Post
Using a GFCI receptacle as you describe is OK but that doesn't mean you can use is any place you want to.

I think you need to read NEC 250.114(3)
Thanks a7ecorsair for your input!

Isn't it amazing that you can get varying opinions, contrary to what Jim Port apparently believes, but as I stated? I don't mean to harp on that but having someone insinuate I was lying about such doesn't sit well with me. Especially since it flies in the face of logic, given I'm determined to get the CORRECT answer. It's also kinda ironic that I came across a thread in which numerous prominent members, including Jim, were in a heated debate and at complete odds over basically the same issue/codes. Go figure.

Anyhow, to answer your questions.

1) If you install a receptacle as such it must be done in a manner as not to possibly damage the cord. It also must be in the same cabinet or adjacent cabinet. I put it in the adjacent cabinet so it could be reset if needed.

2) I just came across some OSHA articles and now feel fully confident my setup isn't NEC compliant or at minimum best. The only "exception" to having no ground would be if the dishwasher was double insulated. So there is at least one applicable exception to not having a ground in my case.

3) I am going to run a ground wire from the interior panel box to the dishwasher, irrespective. This is going to be difficult for a lot of reasons but as I will be happy/confident with that.

Any other input would be welcomed.
Take care, Ralph

Last edited by Ralph III; 10-08-2011 at 12:32 PM.
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Old 10-08-2011, 12:42 PM   #6
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Dishwasher on GFCI, help please


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph III View Post
3) I am going to run a ground wire from the interior panel box to the dishwasher, irrespective. This is going to be difficult for a lot of reasons but as I will be happy/confident with that.

Any other input would be welcomed.
Take care, Ralph
Then why not just run a new dedicated cable for the dishwasher? Pulling a single cable isn't any harder than pulling a single wire.
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Old 10-08-2011, 01:07 PM   #7
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Dishwasher on GFCI, help please


Ralph, I was not saying you were not being truthful. I noted that there were several problems with your installation. My take on your comments was I have found that a GFI can be used on my circuit. This ignored that there were other conditions that also affected the install.

The code section you posted does allow for 2 prong receptacles to be replaced with a GFI. But other articles like 250.114(3), 110.3(B) and 422.16 also come into play.

My take on this

Quote:
Using a GFCI receptacle as you describe is OK but that doesn't mean you can use is any place you want to.

I think you need to read NEC 250.114(3)
is that there are circumstances where the GFI can be used, but that it is not all inclusive and the part of 250.114(3) that requires grounding needs to be considered.

I did not mean to appear harsh, but I dislike people that appear to want to disregard the rules that affect safety.
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Old 10-08-2011, 02:34 PM   #8
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Dishwasher on GFCI, help please


Thanks for all the input guys.

Jim, I made the comment of having gotten some conflicting advice (including conflicting articles/code) in which installing a GFCI exactly as I did, would be an acceptable alternative upon which you stated
Quote:
"I would hardly say that anyone told you this was acceptable..."
Ummmm, if that's not calling someon a liar then I don't know what is. You have to admit it's somewhat funny a7ecorsair then came on and said "Using a GFCI receptacle as you describe is OK..." .


Quote:
quote by Jim Port: "I did not mean to appear harsh, but I dislike people that appear to want to disregard the rules that affect safety."
So do I Jim! Cannot you see just how convoluted your reasoning was/is though? If I were someone who could care less about safety I wouldn't be spending all this time researching and interacting with professionals in attempting to insure I do the job the correct way. I was raised and adhere by the notion "safety first"....

ALL OF THAT IS WATER UNDER THE BRIDGE THOUGH AND I APPRECIATE YOUR INPUT!!!!!

Last edited by Ralph III; 10-08-2011 at 02:37 PM.
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Old 10-08-2011, 05:34 PM   #9
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Dishwasher on GFCI, help please


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph III View Post
Thanks for all the input guys.
Jim's right; so is A7E. They are saying the same thing. You can replace a 2-prong receptacle with a GFCI as you describe, but not if there is another code section that separately requires grounding for a particular installation. This is one of those circumstances.
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Old 10-09-2011, 01:41 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpoulton View Post
Jim's right; so is A7E. They are saying the same thing. You can replace a 2-prong receptacle with a GFCI as you describe, but not if there is another code section that separately requires grounding for a particular installation. This is one of those circumstances.
mpoulton, I entered this forum because I wanted some confirmation that what Jim was saying was indeed correct. I have to completely dissagree that a7ecorsair was conveying the same sentiment though!

Jim emphatically conveyed it was not ok, under any circumstance, to install the GFCI receptacle for the dishwasher as I did, whereas a7ecorsair said it was but under proper circumstance.

Quote:
Jim Port "...Installing a GFI does not meet that requirement."

a7ecorsair "Using a GFCI receptacle as you describe is OK..."
I'm sorry but those two sentiments couldn't differ any greater. I clearly described using a GFCI for the dishwasher in lieu of using a ground as none were available.

I'm not here to challenge anyone's abilities but only to get absolute clarity. Given your response above however, please answer this for me.

WHEN DOES CODE SAY IT IS OK TO USE A GFCI RECEPTACLE IN LIEU OF A GROUND, FOR A DISHWASHER?

take care, Ralph

Last edited by Ralph III; 10-09-2011 at 01:53 AM.
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Old 10-09-2011, 02:48 AM   #11
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Dishwasher on GFCI, help please


I will step in here for a second .,,

For the dishwasher we always follow the manufacter instruction if going either hardwird or cord et plug modé.

And in NEC code and I know many local codes will pop up on this one the dishwasher genrally reqired it own circuit if sized on 15 amp circuit but 20 amp circuit it can share with Garbage dispoal unit however there is a cleavté { gotcha } it can not be over 50 % of amp drawage from etiher unit so on 20 amp circuit it will not excessed 10 amp

And quite few local codes will ask for either local disconnect means like cord et plug it is fine but with hardwired there is two options depending on the local / state codes have a simple switch in the cabent or above the counter top otherwise make a provideation of lock out device on the breaker.

( this part is getting more stricter espcally with new codes are rolling in so preprepare for it )

And I never extend a ungrounded circuits at all genrally it is not allowed in NEC code anyway { there are few sections on this one depending on type of conductors / cables }

As far for the RCD { GFCI } on ungrounded circuits yeah you can use it but read the arts # 250.114(3), 110.3(B) and 422.16 { IIRC that in 2008 NEC code } that you have to follow it up.

For the dishwasher run on ungrounded circuit I jamais do that in both USA and France for very good reason even thru some dishwasher is double insluated but not always the case.

Hope that help you a bit on this one.

Merci,
Marc
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Old 10-09-2011, 05:24 AM   #12
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Dishwasher on GFCI, help please


Answers in red.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph III View Post
mpoulton, I entered this forum because I wanted some confirmation that what Jim was saying was indeed correct. I have to completely dissagree that a7ecorsair was conveying the same sentiment though!

Then you're not reading carefully, not understanding what they're saying, or just being difficult.

Jim emphatically conveyed it was not ok, under any circumstance, to install the GFCI receptacle for the dishwasher as I did, whereas a7ecorsair said it was but under proper circumstance.

No. Jim said you can't use an ungrounded GFCI for a dishwasher. A7E said you can use a GFCI in lieu of a ground, but not if a separate code provision requires a ground for that particular installation. Dishwashers require a ground. Thus, you can't use a GFCI in lieu of a ground. This is not complicated or confusing.

I'm sorry but those two sentiments couldn't differ any greater. I clearly described using a GFCI for the dishwasher in lieu of using a ground as none were available.

And those two guys clearly answered your question, including code cites.

I'm not here to challenge anyone's abilities but only to get absolute clarity. Given your response above however, please answer this for me.

WHEN DOES CODE SAY IT IS OK TO USE A GFCI RECEPTACLE IN LIEU OF A GROUND, FOR A DISHWASHER?

The code never permits that installation. Just like everyone so far has said.

take care, Ralph
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Old 10-09-2011, 08:30 AM   #13
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Dishwasher on GFCI, help please


Not an electrician, just a DIY'er who has done this before.
ANd it went exactly as the OP stated, lots of annoying GFCI trips. This was ten years ago, maybe GFCIs are more lenient, but I put it down to the
GFCI sensing "leakage" either when the motor kicked on, or when the heater reached full temp, and then backs off.
My solution was to run a dedicated circuit.

Just chiming in, again, no expert here by a mile, lol!
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Old 10-09-2011, 10:40 AM   #14
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Dishwasher on GFCI, help please


mpoulton, you are mincing words and trying to make this into an English debate. I asked you a very specific question in my last post because I knew this was going to occur.



Quote:
quote by mpoulton: "No. Jim said you can't use an ungrounded GFCI for a dishwasher."
Yes, and that is exactly what I said! "Jim emphatically conveyed it was not ok...to install the GFCI receptacle for the dishwasher as I did...". Why did you make it seem as if I were in disagreement, from my last post?




Quote:
quote by mpoulton: "A7E said you can use a GFCI in lieu of a ground, but not if a separate code provision requires a ground for that particular installation. Dishwashers require a ground. Thus, you can't use a GFCI in lieu of a ground...."
1) First, the contradictions in that statement couldn't be any more blatant. "A7E said you can use a GFCI in lieu of a ground---------Thus, you can't use a GFCI in lieu of a ground". This is my entire point! The discussion has been STRICTLY in regards to a dishwasher installation. NOTHING ELSE.

2) Second, that is not what A7E said. He said "Using a GFCI receptacle as you describe is OK... ". You are simply trying to make his words fit your argument at this point. Even Jim felt it necessary to address A7E's seemingly differing opinion by saying "My take on this". See post #7

BTW, I even responded directly to A7E and highlighted his apparent differing opinion, see post #5! No correction was ever made by him in saying he was actually in agreement with Jim.

3) Last, I provided specific code reference in my initial post and one of my questions was whether 406.3 allowed an "exception". A7E at a minimum seemingly implied there was an exception, whereas Jim was definitive in saying "no".


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I asked you the following question:

WHEN DOES CODE SAY IT IS OK TO USE A GFCI RECEPTACLE IN LIEU OF A GROUND, FOR A DISHWASHER?


You answered "The code never permits that installation...".


Enough said! That is exactly how Jim answered, btw. Why would someone then come on and say, "Using a GFCI receptacle as you describe is OK...", if they were not offering a seemingly different opinion? Jim had already given the definitive answer! A7E is welcome to clarify but I clearly described using a GFCI in lieu of a ground, for a dishwasher! That is NOT permissable by code. The matter is settled.

Have a great Sunday and God Bless

Last edited by Ralph III; 10-09-2011 at 02:22 PM.
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Old 10-09-2011, 01:56 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dougp23 View Post
Not an electrician, just a DIY'er who has done this before.
ANd it went exactly as the OP stated, lots of annoying GFCI trips. This was ten years ago, maybe GFCIs are more lenient, but I put it down to the
GFCI sensing "leakage" either when the motor kicked on, or when the heater reached full temp, and then backs off.
My solution was to run a dedicated circuit.

Just chiming in, again, no expert here by a mile, lol!

Doug thanks! I also read, after researching Jim's initial response, that the new dishwashers can have some leakage due to all the digital controls on them now. That as posted in another Electrical or NEC type forum. So I'm hopefull it's just the GFCI being too sensitive for this install. BTW, it doesn't trip until the full cycle has run and at the very end of the heating cycle.

I also read where the older GFI's used to trip a lot from such false senses. They are supposed to have improved that over the years though.

QUESTION: Did you ever have any more problems with your dishwasher after running the dedicated circuit?

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Last edited by Ralph III; 10-09-2011 at 02:06 PM.
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