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Old 06-27-2011, 01:18 PM   #16
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Dimmer for fan and light


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Originally Posted by rjniles View Post
Not unless you are under NEC 2011.

Under NEC 2011, the wire companies will sell a lot of 4 wire cable.
I agree as long as one insulated conductor remains white or white/red trace.

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Old 06-27-2011, 01:36 PM   #17
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So as long as I run a new 14-2 cable and just use the black from the switch to the fan that would be ok?

I would just need to cap off the whites at both ends?
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Old 06-27-2011, 01:47 PM   #18
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So as long as I run a new 14-2 cable and just use the black from the switch to the fan that would be ok?

I would just need to cap off the whites at both ends?
No that is not OK, that separates the circuit into 2 different cable sheaths and is a code violation.

Jim Port and I have a agreed to disagree on whether you can use both whites as remarked hots and use the blacks as the switch loop returns.

But since you need to run a new cable, run a 3 wire cable and get everything (both the fan circuit and light circuit) into the same cable. Abondon the existing 2 wire cable.

Unless you are under NEC 2011, then you need a 4 wire cable.
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Old 06-27-2011, 01:52 PM   #19
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what rjniles said. 14-3 w/g
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Old 06-27-2011, 02:12 PM   #20
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No that is not OK, that separates the circuit into 2 different cable sheaths and is a code violation.

Jim Port and I have a agreed to disagree on whether you can use both whites as remarked hots and use the blacks as the switch loop returns.

But since you need to run a new cable, run a 3 wire cable and get everything (both the fan circuit and light circuit) into the same cable. Abondon the existing 2 wire cable.

Unless you are under NEC 2011, then you need a 4 wire cable.
rjniles, I am probably not reading the same Art Sec for the same cable same circuit requirement that would be permitted in resi work. The [300.5(I)Ex.1 is related to underground and does not include structure frame installation as mentioned in same circuit [300.3(B)(1)&(2)} for otherwise permitted further references to grounding.
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Old 06-27-2011, 02:23 PM   #21
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Jim,

My suggestion was to run a new 2 wire cable and send the power down on the 2 whites (re-marked) black and use the blacks for the switch returns. That makes 2 different circuits (switch loops), one for the fan and one for the light. I believe that complies with the code requiring all conductors for a circuit be in the same sheath.
I agree, except if the 2011 has been adopted.
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Old 06-27-2011, 02:57 PM   #22
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Either way - it isn't as simple as just running 1 new wire. Creating a separate switch loop for the light means I have to bring power into the box in the attic and run a 2 wire cable to the fan and another 2 wire cable to the switch.

Then the whites from each cable go to the black on my new switch and one black goes to the fan and the other goes to the light. Not sure this technique will work with my new switch since it is essentially 2 switch loops.
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Old 06-27-2011, 04:08 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Elkie View Post
Either way - it isn't as simple as just running 1 new wire. Creating a separate switch loop for the light means I have to bring power into the box in the attic and run a 2 wire cable to the fan and another 2 wire cable to the switch.

Then the whites from each cable go to the black on my new switch and one black goes to the fan and the other goes to the light. Not sure this technique will work with my new switch since it is essentially 2 switch loops.
Easiest solution, which has already been pointed out, is to install a fan remote. That will give you the ability to control the fan and light, and dim the light. No alterations to the wiring is necessary.

If the remote is not to your liking, do what others have suggested and run a new 14/3 (or 12/3) cable between the ceiling box and the switch. Remark the white and connect it to the incoming hot at the ceiling. Connect the other end of the remarked white to one screw of the fan switch and to one screw of the dimmer. Connect the red to the dimmer at the switch box and to the light wire (blue or black/white) at the fan, connect the black to the fan switch and to the fan wire (black). Abandon the 2 wire cable currently in use.
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Old 06-27-2011, 04:19 PM   #24
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Quote:
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Either way - it isn't as simple as just running 1 new wire. Creating a separate switch loop for the light means I have to bring power into the box in the attic and run a 2 wire cable to the fan and another 2 wire cable to the switch.
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I do not understand why you think you need to bring power to the attic box, the power is already there. Having 2 switch loops does not mean you need 2 different power feeds.
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Old 06-27-2011, 04:23 PM   #25
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You mean something like this?

http://www.google.com/products/catal...ed=0CGIQ8gIwAw#

I thought that would require different wiring too?
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Old 06-27-2011, 04:30 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Elkie View Post
You mean something like this?

http://www.google.com/products/catal...ed=0CGIQ8gIwAw#

I thought that would require different wiring too?

That remote will be fine, no rewire required.
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Old 06-27-2011, 06:43 PM   #27
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Dimmer for fan and light


quasi on topic, can someone explain the logic behind the 4 wire requirement in NEC 2011, I'm under 2008 but I just ran a ceiling fan in a wall that was spray foamed so I'd like to understand the change.

thanks
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Old 06-27-2011, 07:03 PM   #28
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quasi on topic, can someone explain the logic behind the 4 wire requirement in NEC 2011, I'm under 2008 but I just ran a ceiling fan in a wall that was spray foamed so I'd like to understand the change.

thanks
Not a requirement necessarily for 4 wire, but a requirement that all switch boxes have a neutral. This means you can not use a 2 wire switch loop but must run 3 wire to have a neutral even if unused. Also for and end run to a 3 way switch, instead of running 3 wire cable you need 4 wire to include the neutral.

I assume the rational is that people are adding timer switches or other electronics that require a neutral and end up using the equipment ground when they find no neutral. An overstep IMO, but it is what it is.

I am sure the wire manufacturers support this fully.
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Old 06-27-2011, 07:29 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by rjniles View Post
Not a requirement necessarily for 4 wire, but a requirement that all switch boxes have a neutral. This means you can not use a 2 wire switch loop but must run 3 wire to have a neutral even if unused. Also for and end run to a 3 way switch, instead of running 3 wire cable you need 4 wire to include the neutral.

I assume the rational is that people are adding timer switches or other electronics that require a neutral and end up using the equipment ground when they find no neutral. An overstep IMO, but it is what it is.

I am sure the wire manufacturers support this fully.
so is this to say that for just the use of a ceiling fan with a light and only one switch for each will still be in code with only 3 wire from ceiling fan to the switches under 2011 NEC?
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Old 06-27-2011, 07:39 PM   #30
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so is this to say that for just the use of a ceiling fan with a light and only one switch for each will still be in code with only 3 wire from ceiling fan to the switches under 2011 NEC?
No it will not.

If the power feed is at the fan and you want a separate switch for the light and fan, you will need to run a 4 wire cable per NEC 2011. Wires will be utilized as hot, switched hot for fan, switched hot for light and neutral. The neutral will not be used and will be capped at the switch box.

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