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Old 04-01-2010, 08:42 AM   #31
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This diagram look ok?


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Originally Posted by secutanudu View Post
I believe the white wire (recoded to black) is supposed to be the constant hot, and the red/black should be the switched hot.

I do not know if this is in code, or just in practice. I know every time I post a diagram the "wrong" way, someone tells me so, so that's why I did it that way instead. (and actually remembered this time!)

I'll probably do it that way.
IMO that only, and correctly, applies to two wire switch loops.

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Old 04-01-2010, 08:44 AM   #32
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This diagram look ok?


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Originally Posted by brric View Post
IMO that only, and correctly, applies to two wire switch loops.
So you're telling me the one time I finally remember...I didn't even need to?! Figures

Thanks for the advice to everyone, I think I am all set.
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Old 04-01-2010, 08:48 AM   #33
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This diagram look ok?


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Originally Posted by secutanudu View Post
So you're telling me the one time I finally remember...I didn't even need to?! Figures

Thanks for the advice to everyone, I think I am all set.
How do you draw those diagrams.?????
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Old 04-01-2010, 08:50 AM   #34
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This diagram look ok?


I just use MS Paint.
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Old 04-01-2010, 09:03 AM   #35
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This diagram look ok?


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I just use MS Paint.
Thanks.
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Old 04-01-2010, 09:10 AM   #36
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This diagram look ok?


Sure. I am sure there are better programs for it...probably not free ones though.
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Old 04-01-2010, 09:20 AM   #37
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This diagram look ok?


Quote:
Originally Posted by secutanudu View Post
I believe the white wire (recoded to black) is supposed to be the constant hot, and the red/black should be the switched hot.

I do not know if this is in code, or just in practice. I know every time I post a diagram the "wrong" way, someone tells me so, so that's why I did it that way instead. (and actually remembered this time!)

I'll probably do it that way.
Doing a search in the code for 3-way switches, the only thing I could find (relative to this discussion) was section 200.7(C)2.

The section deals with the use of white conductors for OTHER than a grounded conductor. I would say that you could make an argument that the white wire could be used as the switched hot if the switched hot is not wired directly to an outlet. But the only "safe" way (i.e. avoid any possible disagreement with an inspector) to interpet this section is to use the white wire (recoded black) as the unswitched hot to the switch in a switch loop just as secutanudu recommends.
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Old 04-01-2010, 09:40 AM   #38
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This diagram look ok?


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Originally Posted by HooKooDooKu View Post
Doing a search in the code for 3-way switches, the only thing I could find (relative to this discussion) was section 200.7(C)2.

The section deals with the use of white conductors for OTHER than a grounded conductor. I would say that you could make an argument that the white wire could be used as the switched hot if the switched hot is not wired directly to an outlet. But the only "safe" way (i.e. avoid any possible disagreement with an inspector) to interpet this section is to use the white wire (recoded black) as the unswitched hot to the switch in a switch loop just as secutanudu recommends.
I respectfully disagree but it's not a big deal. The whites used in switching are technically supposed to be re-identified in each instance at every switch box thus signifying it as an ungrounded conductor. Some people use the white as common some use the black and I would guess some even use the red. It's a matter of uniformity among crews and especially how the boss wants it done.
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Old 04-01-2010, 10:37 AM   #39
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This diagram look ok?


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Originally Posted by brric View Post
I respectfully disagree...
Here's section 200.7(C)

It's a bit wordy and confusing on first read... and possibly open to interpretation.

At the moment, the only thing I'm arguing is that code for sure allows the use of the white conductor as the unswitched hot side of a switch loop.


(C)
Circuits of 50 Volts or More. The use of insulation
that is white or gray or that has three continuous white
stripes for other than a grounded conductor for circuits
of 50 volts or more shall be permitted only as in (I)
through (3).
(1)


If part of a cable assembly and where the insulation is
permanently reidentified to indicate its use as an ungrounded
conductor, by painting or other effective
means at its termination, and at each location where the
70--44
conductor is visible and accessible. Identification shall
encircle the insulation and shall be a color other than
white, gray, or green.
(2) Where a cable assembly contains an insulated conductor
for single-pole, 3-way or 4-way switch loops and
the conductor with white or gray insulation or a marking
of three continuous white stripes is used for the
supply to the switch but not as a return conductor from
the switch to the switched outlet. In these applications,
the conductor with white or gray insulation or with
three continuous white stripes shall be permanently reidentified
to indicate its use by painting or other effective
means at its terminations and at each location
where the conductor is visible and accessible.
(3) Where a flexible cord, having one conductor identified
by a white or gray outer finish or three continuous
white stripes or by any other means permitted by
400.22, is used for connecting an appliance or equipment
permitted by 400.7. This shall apply to flexible
cords connected to outlets whether or not the outlet is

supplied by a circuit that has a grounded conductor.

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Old 04-01-2010, 10:45 AM   #40
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This diagram look ok?


We agree to disagree. I read it to say WHEN used as the supply to the switch it may not be used coming out of the switch to an outlet. I don't interpret that article to say that it MUST be used , but I do see your point.

Last edited by brric; 04-01-2010 at 10:48 AM.
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Old 04-01-2010, 11:03 AM   #41
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This diagram look ok?


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We agree to disagree.
We're not really disagreeing.

To me, the wording of this section is a bit confusing and open to some interpretation.

The only thing I'm arguing is that this section of code ALLOWS for remarked whites to be on the unswitched side of a switch loop.

But because the wording seems a bit convoluted to me, I've got no basis to disagree with other's interpretations of what it does mean.
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Old 04-01-2010, 11:06 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by HooKooDooKu View Post
We're not really disagreeing.

To me, the wording of this section is a bit confusing and open to some interpretation.

The only thing I'm arguing is that this section of code ALLOWS for remarked whites to be on the unswitched side of a switch loop.

But because the wording seems a bit convoluted to me, I've got no basis to disagree with other's interpretations of what it does mean.
I agree.
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Old 04-01-2010, 11:24 AM   #43
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This diagram look ok?


Quote:
Originally Posted by brric View Post
We agree to disagree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HooKooDooKu View Post
We're not really disagreeing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brric View Post
I agree.
I agree that you both agree that you do not disagree.
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Old 04-01-2010, 11:31 AM   #44
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This diagram look ok?


At least we're not flaming..................
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Old 04-01-2010, 11:37 AM   #45
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This diagram look ok?


As for an easier install I would wire the three ways differently:
Hot to one two gang box (the bx), pigtail it so you have two commons.
Switch legs to other box (commons also).
Two individual 14-3's from box to box which will be your travellers.
Splice all your neutrals and grounds together and you're done.

This will balance out your box-fill and to me is a lot easier.

Good luck one way or another.

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