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Old 09-30-2010, 10:07 AM   #1
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Dedicated circuits in the home?


I am curious which, by NEC code, should be dedicated circuits and if an older (50s) home would be required to conform if sold?

Reason I ask is I have a split range and the oven and dryer are on the same circuit. The wiring and breaker are sized correctly so the circuit is safe so it really just comes down to code and what will fly when I sell the house. The panel is loaded so not a lot of options there...
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Old 09-30-2010, 10:15 AM   #2
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Dedicated circuits in the home?


You are not required to meet newer code
With some exceptions - smoke alarms, CO's
Dryer is usually only a 30a
Stoves are usually 40-50a....but there might be older 30a stoves - range top only ?
I'd run 10-3 to the dryer & put it on its own 30a circuit
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Old 09-30-2010, 10:21 AM   #3
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Dedicated circuits in the home?


Well, what was done is super unsafe so I need to change it anyway. Circuit is 40A, 8ga wire is going out to the oven, then branches with (((10ga))) wire to the dryer....

My thought was to install a simple fuse box at that junction to protect the 10ga wiring to 30A which in all functionality, would be safe, but then you have trips that are not easily accessible. However, I would reason that if you are tripping this for any reason, there is a major issue. IMO, fusing is 10X safer than breakers anyway.

If I dedicate the circuit, I would rather install a Jbox and tie on to that existing 10ga wire but not sure if you have to have a continuous pull for 240V circuits. I could see reason to have I guess... I would use lugs, not wire nuts for something like this.
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Old 09-30-2010, 10:23 AM   #4
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Dedicated circuits in the home?


You know, on second though, I know that oven only pulls 10A. I think I will go see what the dryer pulls. It might be easiest to simply switch that circuit to a 30A breaker and be done if I can determine that I can get away with it.

I certainly do not want to do something unsafe here, just trying to find a solution to the problem with a loaded up panel and not wanting to install a sub panel
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Old 09-30-2010, 10:32 AM   #5
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Dedicated circuits in the home?


You should really check to see the number and colors of wires in the cables. You probably don't have the required number of conductors to be making changes to the circuits like adding a subpanel. Most likely you would need new cables back to the panel.
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Old 09-30-2010, 10:43 AM   #6
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Dedicated circuits in the home?


Well the thought of just adding a 30A breaker is a no-go. Dryer is 20A, oven is 10A. I would not be worried for short loads but both appliances can run for hours so that would certainly create a trip condition with both running.

I know what is going out of the panel is 8/2 and connected to it is 10/2. I want to say dryers operated everything on 240 so would not "technically" need the neutral but if that is not the case, then the ground would be loaded right now. Not good....
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Old 09-30-2010, 11:01 AM   #7
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Dedicated circuits in the home?


Most dryers have 120 volt components so they need a 4 wire connection including neutral.

Dryers come with a standardized plug (I think 30 amps) and the receptacle and also the breaker has to match.

In addition there needs to be a dedicated 20 amp 120 volt circuit to a receptacle the laundry area. (There may be other receptacles in the laundry area served by other circuits.)

You need two 20 amp 120 volt circuits (with GFCI protection) serving the kitchen counter receptacles.

One 20 amp circuit (with GFCI protection) serves receptacles, lights, fan, etc. in just one bathroom or serves receptacles only in one or more bathrooms.
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Last edited by AllanJ; 09-30-2010 at 11:08 AM.
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Old 09-30-2010, 11:02 AM   #8
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Dedicated circuits in the home?


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Originally Posted by viper View Post
Well the thought of just adding a 30A breaker is a no-go. Dryer is 20A, oven is 10A. I would not be worried for short loads but both appliances can run for hours so that would certainly create a trip condition with both running.

I personally have never seen a dryer than was 20 amp and never have seen a oven that's 10 amps. Where are you getting these amp ratings? You must look at the name plate current on the appliance. You use the nameplate current to size the wire and the breaker. Are these appliances gas? Then your numbers make more sense. Check the nameplate!

I know what is going out of the panel is 8/2 and connected to it is 10/2. I want to say dryers operated everything on 240 so would not "technically" need the neutral but if that is not the case, then the ground would be loaded right now. Not good....
Once again you need to check the dryer nameplate. Dryers are usually (99.9%) of the time 120/240. I personally have never seen a dryer that was not 120/240 in 35 years in this business. Check the name plate! So with this being the case you do need a neutral.

The 8/2 connected to the 10/2 is a violation. You should re pull both circuits using the appliances NAMEPLATE current (amps) and voltage.
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Old 09-30-2010, 11:22 AM   #9
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Dedicated circuits in the home?


The amp draw I was quoting was direct testing of the loads with a meter, not nameplate. The oven is the oven only, not the range top which is on a separate 30A circuit.

Sounds like I need to find a way to serve the dedicated 30A service to the dryer. Obviously the 10/2 is a big problem anyway. I want to say at one time I tested out that the blower and drive motors are 120V along with the controls and the heating element was 240V. Sounds pretty unsafe to me. I will make the necessary changes. Thanks guys.
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Old 09-30-2010, 09:32 PM   #10
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Dedicated circuits in the home?


Just do it proper and install two separate circuits. The circuits under current code will need to be four wire feeds.
A junction box to the existing #10 feed to the dryer will be fine if the cable is four wire and the junction box is accessible.
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Old 09-30-2010, 09:44 PM   #11
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Dedicated circuits in the home?


The safest way is to run a new circuits for dryer and wall oven and be done with it the code been written for very long time and it have not change for many years the dryer have to be on own circuit.

I do not know why you have to use the ampmeter to read them and from my exerince and we do follow the manufacter instruction for the circuit size and voltage that is very important part to deal with it.

If not follow it they will not honour the warranty at all.

Merci.
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Old 09-30-2010, 09:44 PM   #12
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Dedicated circuits in the home?


I'd at least separate those two. I could see a home inspector saying something about that.

If you get a house wife doing laundry and cooking at same time, the breaker will always trip and the poor husband will get yelled at to go turn it back on, right in the middle of the football game. Can't have that happen! :P
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Old 09-30-2010, 10:31 PM   #13
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Dedicated circuits in the home?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Scuba_Dave View Post
You are not required to meet newer code
With some exceptions - smoke alarms, CO's
be careful with that advice. In the city I live in, you would be correct. In one immediately across the state line from me, you would be incorrect. They are required to bring the house to current electrical code when sold.

I think it's those darn union guys forcing those rules though. You know, forced business

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nap; member in good standing; IBEW 153.



OP, check your local keepers of the laws to be sure. In most areas, I believe Daves advice would be correct in most areas but there is at least one area it isn't.
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Old 09-30-2010, 11:09 PM   #14
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Dedicated circuits in the home?


Thanks for the replies guys. Here is what I am doing, I have a 40A circuit to just the oven where load is only 10A/240V. I am joining that with the range top which still stays under max load conditions and "should" meet code. I found that the f&*king range top was not even grounded and 12ga wire pigtail feeding the oven on a ""40A"" circuit. Burn, baby, burn.

The circuit in question had the oven and dryer on the same. That total load was only 30A so breaker tripping does not ever happen but unsafe none the less.

I basically joined the range top and oven with a single 40A breaker and that made room for the 30A dedicated circuit for the dryer. I just cannot remember if the range top and oven are separate, if they can be joined up or not. Spent most of my days in commercial data wiring.

Also, is it ok to have a Jbox to extend wiring for 240V circuits? I want to say hell no but thought I would ask. I am not comfortable with anything over 10ga for extensions.

Nother quicky. I cannot recall what the max distance is for 8ga on a 40a before you have to switch to 6ga? This has 6ga and a 40a service but my GOD, the load is only 10A on the oven....12/3 and a double 20 would have been happy till the cows come home....

I did reference the name plates and usually on resistive loads, they are pretty much on, BUT on motor loads, that can vary so I like to do some testing on my own stuff because I like things protected as close as possible. Breakers and motors just do NOT mix very well IME?
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Old 09-30-2010, 11:58 PM   #15
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Dedicated circuits in the home?


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Breakers and motors just do NOT mix very well IME?
then you are doing something wrong. I have put in thousands of motors using breakers and cannot remember having problems with any of them due to the use of breakers.

Quote:
I found that the f&*king range top was not even grounded and 12ga wire pigtail feeding the oven on a ""40A"" circuit. Burn, baby, burn.
not really. As long as there is no short circuit, you shouldn't have a problem. With a 10 amp load, you won't harm the wire. If there is a short circuit (not an overload), the breaker will trip, even though it is a 40 amp breaker. It's called a tap and while I do not ever use them in resi, there are many times they are used in commercial and industrial installs. I would have to check the legality but even if illegal, it generally will not cause any problems. Yes, I would change this while there.

Quote:
Also, is it ok to have a Jbox to extend wiring for 240V circuits?
Ok?, how about mandatory. If you make joints, they must be in a box. There is nothing wrong with extending a circuit.

Quote:
I cannot recall what the max distance is for 8ga on a 40a before you have to switch to 6ga?
there is no "mandatory" upsize for distance. That would be concerning voltage drop and while the code has suggestions, they are not mandatory.

but considering voltage drop, you could run up to a 115 foot circuit (240 volts) at 40 amps before you would need to upsize to 6.

Quote:
This has 6ga and a 40a service but my GOD, the load is only 10A on the oven....12/3 and a double 20 would have been happy till the cows come home....
the circuit must be installed based on the rating of the equipment. If the nameplate says 10 amps, you can put a 15 amp circuit in it with #14 wire.

Most people put a 40 amp range recep because that will provide adequate power for most oven/ranges. It's overkill for some but woefully inadequate for others.
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