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Old 11-18-2013, 01:12 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by itsnotrequired View Post
that is not my interpretation. if the sink rear edge is within the distances to the wall as indicated in the diagram, you don't need to include that portion of the wall as part of the wall space for spacing receptacles...but you are not prohibited from placing receptacles in the space. i would say if a receptacle is placed in the space, it would count toward the 2' maximum wall distance from a receptacle.

Your issue is the way your looking at ... }}}}}}} 2' maximum distance from a wall receptacle {{{{{{{

It is NOT stated that way .....


Ad you still need a receptacle within 2' / 24" on both sides of the sink .... An outlet behind the sink does not count of anything as it is NOT measured ...or included in any measurements .....so it will not change in any way shape or form the actual count of how many outlets need to be installed using the picture posted

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Old 11-18-2013, 01:18 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Tonglebeak View Post
Is that telling me that receptacles behind the sink do not count?
If it is LESS than 18" .........< is the LESS than sign ...in the picture ..



If the sink was 18 1/2 the it would.
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Old 11-18-2013, 01:34 PM   #33
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Your issue is the way your looking at ... }}}}}}} 2' maximum distance from a wall receptacle {{{{{{{

It is NOT stated that way .....


Ad you still need a receptacle within 2' / 24" on both sides of the sink .... An outlet behind the sink does not count of anything as it is NOT measured ...or included in any measurements .....so it will not change in any way shape or form the actual count of how many outlets need to be installed using the picture posted
i respectfully disagree

by placing a receptacle behind the sink, it can be positioned such that no receptacle would need to be placed under the window. this owuld be an 'extra' receptacle but for this particular case, the extra receptacle will eliminate the need to put one under the window and having to cut the backsplash.
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Old 11-18-2013, 01:37 PM   #34
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i respectfully disagree

by placing a receptacle behind the sink, it can be positioned such that no receptacle would need to be placed under the window. this owuld be an 'extra' receptacle but for this particular case, the extra receptacle will eliminate the need to put one under the window and having to cut the backsplash.

Yes extra ... Nothing to do with the code questions ...
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Old 11-18-2013, 01:49 PM   #35
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Nothing to do with the code questions ...
sure it does. nowhere in the code does it say a receptacle must be within 2' of the edge of a sink. the requirement is no space along the wall shall be more than 2' from a receptacle. using figure 210.52(c)(1), discounting the wall space behind the sink (as allowed by the exception) is basically creating a new countertop edge. because it is now treated as an edge, a receptacle needs to be within 2' of the sink but this is only a consequence of 'breaking' the wall space behind the sink, not because a receptacle muct always be within 2' of a sink edge. for the op situation, this would mean a receptacle under the window which is undesirable. a better solution in this case would be to place a receptacle in the area behind the sink, such that there is no more than 4' along the wall to the adjacent receptacles.

remember, the exception allows for the wall space behind the sink to not be counted, not that it shall not be counted. it is perfectly fine to put a receptacle in that location. most everyone doesn't do it because it isn't the best location for accessibility but in this particular application, it is a good idea...and allowed by code.
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Old 11-18-2013, 06:05 PM   #36
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sure it does. nowhere in the code does it say a receptacle must be within 2' of the edge of a sink. the requirement is no space along the wall shall be more than 2' from a receptacle. using figure 210.52(c)(1), discounting the wall space behind the sink (as allowed by the exception) is basically creating a new countertop edge. because it is now treated as an edge, a receptacle needs to be within 2' of the sink but this is only a consequence of 'breaking' the wall space behind the sink, not because a receptacle muct always be within 2' of a sink edge. for the op situation, this would mean a receptacle under the window which is undesirable. a better solution in this case would be to place a receptacle in the area behind the sink, such that there is no more than 4' along the wall to the adjacent receptacles.

remember, the exception allows for the wall space behind the sink to not be counted, not that it shall not be counted. it is perfectly fine to put a receptacle in that location. most everyone doesn't do it because it isn't the best location for accessibility but in this particular application, it is a good idea...and allowed by code.

read the PICTURE I POSTED FOR YOU ..SEE WHERE IT SAYs WITHIN 24" FROM EDGES >>>> THAT IS THE CODE !!!


here >>>>

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Old 11-18-2013, 06:10 PM   #37
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read the PICTURE I POSTED FOR YOU ..SEE WHERE IT SAYs WITHIN 24" FROM EDGES >>>> THAT IS THE CODE !!!


here >>>>

countertop receptacle question.
nowhere in the code does it say a receptacle must be installed within 24" of a sink edge. no where. it is indicated in figure 210.52(c)(1) because the wall space behind the sink is not being counted. as such, the edge of the sink forms a new countertop edge and a receptacle has to be within 2' of a countertop edge along a wall.
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Old 11-18-2013, 06:20 PM   #38
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(C) Countertops. In kitchens, pantries, breakfast rooms, dining rooms, and similar areas of dwelling units, receptacle outlets for countertop spaces shall be installed in accordance with 210.52(C)(1) through (C)(5)
Where a range, counter-mounted cooking unit, or sink is installed in an island or peninsular countertop and the width of the countertop behind the range, counter-mounted cooking unit, or sink is less than 300 mm (12 in.), the range, counter-mounted cooking unit, or sink is considered to divide the countertop space into two separate countertop spaces as defined in 210.52(C)(4). Each separate countertop space shall comply with the applicable requirements in 210.52(C).

(1) Wall Countertop Spaces. A receptacle outlet shall be installed at each wall countertop space that is 300 mm (12 in.) or wider. Receptacle outlets shall be installed so that no point along the wall line is more than 600 mm (24 in.) measured horizontally from a receptacle outlet in that space.
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Old 11-18-2013, 06:21 PM   #39
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I get hard headed sometimes too .....as other will atest too .....
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Old 11-18-2013, 06:22 PM   #40
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nowhere in the code does it say a receptacle must be installed within 24" of a sink edge.
Actually it does, well, not with those exact words of course….
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Old 11-18-2013, 06:23 PM   #41
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oh and here is (4)

(4) Separate Spaces. Countertop spaces separated by rangetops, refrigerators, or sinks shall be considered as separate countertop spaces in applying the requirements of 210.52(C)(1), (C)(2), and (C)(3).
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Old 11-18-2013, 06:25 PM   #42
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here is (C) 2 and 3 and as you can see it is all based to the 24" rule ....

(2) Island Countertop Spaces. At least one receptacle shall be installed at each island countertop space with a long dimension of 600 mm (24 in.) or greater and a short dimension of 300 mm (12 in.) or greater. (3) Peninsular Countertop Spaces. At least one receptacle outlet shall be installed at each peninsular countertop space with a long dimension of 600 mm (24 in.) or greater and a short dimension of 300 mm (12 in.) or greater. A peninsular countertop is measured from the connecting edge.
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Old 11-18-2013, 06:27 PM   #43
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here is (C) 2 and 3 and as you can see it is all based to the 24" rule ....

(2) Island Countertop Spaces. At least one receptacle shall be installed at each island countertop space with a long dimension of 600 mm (24 in.) or greater and a short dimension of 300 mm (12 in.) or greater. (3) Peninsular Countertop Spaces. At least one receptacle outlet shall be installed at each peninsular countertop space with a long dimension of 600 mm (24 in.) or greater and a short dimension of 300 mm (12 in.) or greater. A peninsular countertop is measured from the connecting edge.
You're jumping all over the place, you can't start combining code sections together to justify your opinion….
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Old 11-18-2013, 06:32 PM   #44
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You're jumping all over the place, you can't start combining code sections together to justify your opinion….
not an opinion ..here i will make it simple ...

210.52 (C)


C) Countertops. In kitchens, pantries, breakfast rooms, dining rooms, and similar areas of dwelling units, receptacle outlets for countertop spaces shall be installed in accordance with 210.52(C)(1) through (C)(5)
Where a range, counter-mounted cooking unit, or sink is installed in an island or peninsular countertop and the width of the countertop behind the range, counter-mounted cooking unit, or sink is less than 300 mm (12 in.), the range, counter-mounted cooking unit, or sink is considered to divide the countertop space into two separate countertop spaces as defined in 210.52(C)(4). Each separate countertop space shall comply with the applicable requirements in 210.52(C).

(1) Wall Countertop Spaces. A receptacle outlet shall be installed at each wall countertop space that is 300 mm (12 in.) or wider. Receptacle outlets shall be installed so that no point along the wall line is more than 600 mm (24 in.) measured horizontally from a receptacle outlet in that space.

(2) Island Countertop Spaces. At least one receptacle shall be installed at each island countertop space with a long dimension of 600 mm (24 in.) or greater and a short dimension of 300 mm (12 in.) or greater.

(3)
Peninsular Countertop Spaces. At least one receptacle outlet shall be installed at each peninsular countertop space with a long dimension of 600 mm (24 in.) or greater and a short dimension of 300 mm (12 in.) or greater. A peninsular countertop is measured from the connecting edge.

(4) Separate Spaces. Countertop spaces separated by rangetops, refrigerators, or sinks shall be considered as separate countertop spaces in applying the requirements of 210.52(C)(1), (C)(2), and (C)(3).

(5) Receptacle Outlet Location. Receptacle outlets shall be located above, but not more than 500 mm (20 in.) above, the countertop. Receptacle outlets rendered not readily accessible by appliances fastened in place, appliance garages, sinks, or rangetops as covered in 210.52(C)(1),


Exception, or appliances occupying dedicated space shall not be considered as these required outlets. See related ROP ROC

Exception to (5): To comply with the conditions specified in (1) or (2), receptacle outlets shall be permitted to be mounted not more than 300 mm (12 in.) below the countertop. Receptacles mounted below a countertop in accordance with this exception shall not be located where the countertop extends more than 150 mm (6 in.) beyond its support base.

(1) Construction for the physically impaired

(2) On island and peninsular countertops where the countertop is flat across its entire surface (no backsplashes, dividers, etc.) and there are no means to mount a receptacle within 500 mm (20 in.) above the countertop, such as an overhead cabinet
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Old 11-18-2013, 07:02 PM   #45
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not an opinion ..here i will make it simple ...

210.52 (C)


C) Countertops. In kitchens, pantries, breakfast rooms, dining rooms, and similar areas of dwelling units, receptacle outlets for countertop spaces shall be installed in accordance with 210.52(C)(1) through (C)(5)
Where a range, counter-mounted cooking unit, or sink is installed in an island or peninsular countertop and the width of the countertop behind the range, counter-mounted cooking unit, or sink is less than 300 mm (12 in.), the range, counter-mounted cooking unit, or sink is considered to divide the countertop space into two separate countertop spaces as defined in 210.52(C)(4). Each separate countertop space shall comply with the applicable requirements in 210.52(C).

(1) Wall Countertop Spaces. A receptacle outlet shall be installed at each wall countertop space that is 300 mm (12 in.) or wider. Receptacle outlets shall be installed so that no point along the wall line is more than 600 mm (24 in.) measured horizontally from a receptacle outlet in that space.

(2) Island Countertop Spaces. At least one receptacle shall be installed at each island countertop space with a long dimension of 600 mm (24 in.) or greater and a short dimension of 300 mm (12 in.) or greater.

(3)
Peninsular Countertop Spaces. At least one receptacle outlet shall be installed at each peninsular countertop space with a long dimension of 600 mm (24 in.) or greater and a short dimension of 300 mm (12 in.) or greater. A peninsular countertop is measured from the connecting edge.

(4) Separate Spaces. Countertop spaces separated by rangetops, refrigerators, or sinks shall be considered as separate countertop spaces in applying the requirements of 210.52(C)(1), (C)(2), and (C)(3).

(5) Receptacle Outlet Location. Receptacle outlets shall be located above, but not more than 500 mm (20 in.) above, the countertop. Receptacle outlets rendered not readily accessible by appliances fastened in place, appliance garages, sinks, or rangetops as covered in 210.52(C)(1),


Exception, or appliances occupying dedicated space shall not be considered as these required outlets. See related ROP ROC

Exception to (5): To comply with the conditions specified in (1) or (2), receptacle outlets shall be permitted to be mounted not more than 300 mm (12 in.) below the countertop. Receptacles mounted below a countertop in accordance with this exception shall not be located where the countertop extends more than 150 mm (6 in.) beyond its support base.

(1) Construction for the physically impaired

(2) On island and peninsular countertops where the countertop is flat across its entire surface (no backsplashes, dividers, etc.) and there are no means to mount a receptacle within 500 mm (20 in.) above the countertop, such as an overhead cabinet
I'm in your camp with a receptacle within 24" within a sink, but then you started posting code sections of islands and peninsulas…

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