Go Back   DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum > Home Improvement > Electrical

CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY...IT'S FREE!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 12-22-2009, 12:25 PM   #46
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Brooklyn, New York (NYC)
Posts: 1,124
Rewards Points: 500
Thumbs up

Correct wiring diagram for 1 story house


Quote:
Originally Posted by jerryh3 View Post
I know what you mean. All I know is black is positive and white is negative.
That's good enough! I'm getting there!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerryh3 View Post
I don't believe you have to go back to the rod. Only to the initial bonding point.
That is correct. And not always possible. But. Ideally speaking!

spark plug is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2009, 11:27 PM   #47
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 63
Rewards Points: 75
Default

Correct wiring diagram for 1 story house


Quote:
Originally Posted by spark plug View Post
You failed to note that the OP (from my understanding of his post) connected the "Isolated Ground" (the red wire, which is a Code violation in itself, as other posters have pointed out) to a water pipe , at the same time it was connected to the box and the grounding bar in the panel. Rendering it (minus the Code violations) a NON-Isolated Ground. I apologize for pointing out that the OP does not --at this time-- have a fundamental understanding of the purpose and function of an Isolated Ground. The way the (over priced) Isolated Ground receptacle works is that the Ground prong is NOT attached to the Band, or Saddle. Thus, attaching the Ground lead to the box renders that circuit GROUNDLESS!
Spark Plug, that's not what I said. I didn't ground it to a water pipe, I did it exactly how the Lowes wiring webpage said to-- but, I didn't use their website I was only using it as a reference for Scuba Dave. I wired it the way the wiring inside the Hubbell packaging said to. I've cited 3 sources that all show the same way, now since we're not arguing the benefits of the Isolated Ground Outlets, what is the CORRECT, to code way to wire these for a resitential install.

There have been a few posts saying I've done it incorrectly; and a couple mention an alternative way (just wire a dedicated line directly to a plastic box) but none mention the correct way to install it. That's all I'm looking for, not a fight.

I'm sorry, but I can understand a big box associate has no clue; but published work by two large companies and another book all citing the same thing? Do you think all three sources would go out on a limb and print it (along with detailed pictures) if it was 1) a code violation, and 2) the incorrect way to wire it for a homeowner when the material is clearly designed for residential use.

I appreciate everyone's help, including Scuba Dave; he's been helpful, but arguing and immediately saying I've done everything wrong (even though it passed an inspection) isn't the best way to welcome a new forum member. Or is it?


By the way, I sell bulk cable (mostly low-voltage) cable & installation equipment for a living. I know alot about the bulk cable, companies, and I'm familiar with all the companies for cable (Belden, General Cable, Superior Essex, Alpha Wire, etc), as well as companies making outlets and jacks (ICC, Panduit, Leviton, Pass & Seymour, Hubbel, Tyco/Amp, etc). I'm new to electrical code, but not cabling installations.
jdm001 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2009, 11:51 PM   #48
Learning by Doing
 
Leah Frances's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Easton, Maryland
Posts: 3,156
Rewards Points: 2,000
Blog Entries: 7
Default

Correct wiring diagram for 1 story house


Quote:
Originally Posted by jdm001 View Post
I appreciate everyone's help, including Scuba Dave; he's been helpful, but arguing and immediately saying I've done everything wrong (even though it passed an inspection) isn't the best way to welcome a new forum member. Or is it?
Point of Fact: Did you get this work 'inspected'? Were you issued a rough-in permit? From your post it sounds like you had an electrician look at it. Was he the electrical inspector?

BTW - here's an example of two published works that were recalled by a MAJOR DIY publisher for the following reason "that certain diagrams in these books contain errors that in certain circumstances could result in a potential safety hazard, including electrical shock."http://www.taunton.com/thetauntonpre...all-notice.asp
(I believe this happened Dec 2008).

Point of Order: pointing out errors IS the best way to welcome a new forum member. The whole point of the OP was to vet your plan, right? So, be careful what you ask for.
__________________
If I could only remember to THINK about what I was doing before I did it.
Leah Frances is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2009, 07:25 AM   #49
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: South of Boston, MA
Posts: 17,248
Rewards Points: 2,000
Default

Correct wiring diagram for 1 story house


He never mentioned a permit or Inspection
He had an "electrical Pro" assist him, and then a
Quote:
electrican (licensed commercial inspector) come and look & everything passed code.
No mention of the electrical Inspector... ?
Possible judgement call as he said he was updating an existing space
But then later states he is finishing his basement
If this was new space then meeting all existing code is required
If fishing wires in existing space then maybe not
If taking the walls down then rewiring; then meeting current code is required (all IMO)
Unfortunately this is what happens when advice from most big box stores is used

I've never run an IG in a residential setting
Pretty much told they were pointless so never bothered
I use a UPS & plug the PC in
But from what was said here you need either conduit with an insulated ground or the specific wire with the correctly colored ground

A red wire on a ground bus is an automatic fail (?)
I have a black wire on my ground bus from the phone transformer which the PO connected
I plan on moving that one day to get rid of the black wire

One reason I bought the NEC 2005 code book (handbook version) was to seperate fact from myth
And I just noticed my code book is missing....usually right on my coffee table
I'd been told so much & wanted to find out what was right & what was wrong
Code changes every 3 years & I was even told by electricians inaccurate information
I've been on sites like this for years, but only really started to dig deeper into code since buying this house in 2003

My last house had a lot of (small) problems & was probably wired by what people would call a "hack"

Sorry for being critical....but I look at wiring as what the next owner of the house may need & what should be done to meet code
Scuba_Dave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2009, 11:00 AM   #50
Licensed Pro
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: SC
Posts: 1,543
Rewards Points: 1,000
Default

Correct wiring diagram for 1 story house


ScubaDave, This from my post #36: "And yes, while remarking a conductor in a multiconductor cable to green is code compliant (250.119(B)), there is a caveat that restricts the use of said remarking to situations where the "... conditions of maintenance and supervision ensure that only qualified persons service the installation... " not what you will find in a residential application."
So technically, what the OP did is not a violation, as long as he or another qualified person will service the the installation.

jdm001: As has been pointed out earlier, to install an isolated ground in a dwelling that allows NM cable, just run a dedicated circuit to a standard receptacle in a plastic box. Your ground is now isolated.
__________________
"Life is hard. Life is harder when you're stupid." John Wayne
HouseHelper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2009, 11:26 AM   #51
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Brooklyn, New York (NYC)
Posts: 1,124
Rewards Points: 500
Thumbs up

Correct wiring diagram for 1 story house


jdm001 (Post #50) I will not address myself to the entire post, or for that matter, the entire debate. As you can see that I'm not replying with the "Quote" I'll just make one general statement; That an Isolated Ground circuit, or as some people call it a Dedicated Circuit has one purpose and one way to be connected. The purpose is, to avoid all the electrical "Debris", or "Noise"? that is present in the standard Ground system. Therefore, it, and similar IG circuits take the most DIRECT route to the Main Ground, or closest point. There can be no peripheral connections to any other implement or system. Otherwise you defeat the purpose of it. As far as the accuracy of the sources that you cited.I did not look at those particular web pages. But I assume that they were checked for technical accuracy before being released. My major point is. That when you're dealing with Electrical wiring and Gas, you can not rely on the word of the sales clerk/s because they don't have the technical training or experience in the particular field that they're selling. Because it is not a requirement of their employment. The scope of their knowledge (typically) is limited to the merchandise and the prices. (No matter what) Don't Drink and Drive, Ever!!!
spark plug is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2009, 11:36 AM   #52
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 1,802
Rewards Points: 1,000
Default

Correct wiring diagram for 1 story house


Quote:
Originally Posted by spark plug View Post
jdm001 (Post #50) I will not address myself to the entire post, or for that matter, the entire debate. As you can see that I'm not replying with the "Quote" I'll just make one general statement; That an Isolated Ground circuit, or as some people call it a Dedicated Circuit has one purpose and one way to be connected. The purpose is, to avoid all the electrical "Debris", or "Noise"? that is present in the standard Ground system. Therefore, it, and similar IG circuits take the most DIRECT route to the Main Ground, or closest point. There can be no peripheral connections to any other implement or system. Otherwise you defeat the purpose of it. As far as the accuracy of the sources that you cited.I did not look at those particular web pages. But I assume that they were checked for technical accuracy before being released. My major point is. That when you're dealing with Electrical wiring and Gas, you can not rely on the word of the sales clerk/s because they don't have the technical training or experience in the particular field that they're selling. Because it is not a requirement of their employment. The scope of their knowledge (typically) is limited to the merchandise and the prices. (No matter what) Don't Drink and Drive, Ever!!!
Just to clarify your clarifying statement: A "dedicated" and "isolated ground" receptacle are technically two different things. It is true that with NM, and a plastic box they are inherently identical, let's differentiate the nomenclature for each.
And yes, always verify what someone wearing an apron tells you.
jerryh3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2009, 01:21 PM   #53
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Brooklyn, New York (NYC)
Posts: 1,124
Rewards Points: 500
Thumbs up

Correct wiring diagram for 1 story house


Quote:
Originally Posted by jerryh3 View Post
Just to clarify your clarifying statement: A "dedicated" and "isolated ground" receptacle are technically two different things. It is true that with NM, and a plastic box they are inherently identical, let's differentiate the nomenclature for each.
And yes, always verify what someone wearing an apron tells you.
Thanks for pointing out the difference. But you'll note that I said "some people call it a Dedicated Circuit" albeit incorrectly. Anyone familiar with the terms of the electrical trade knows that they are two entirely different things. A dedicated circuit is not necessarily an IG circuit, or it can be. As in the example you cited. A good idea for the Home centers would be to have Product and installation consultants who are qualified to give technical information to customers.
spark plug is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2009, 02:06 PM   #54
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 1,802
Rewards Points: 1,000
Default

Correct wiring diagram for 1 story house


Quote:
Originally Posted by spark plug View Post
Thanks for pointing out the difference. But you'll note that I said "some people call it a Dedicated Circuit" albeit incorrectly. Anyone familiar with the terms of the electrical trade knows that they are two entirely different things. A dedicated circuit is not necessarily an IG circuit, or it can be. As in the example you cited. A good idea for the Home centers would be to have Product and installation consultants who are qualified to give technical information to customers.
It's a good idea but it's cost a little more to pay someone like that. But, with more tradespeople out of work right now, the candidate pool is a little bigger to pull from.
jerryh3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2009, 08:52 AM   #55
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 63
Rewards Points: 75
Default

Correct wiring diagram for 1 story house


Quote:
Originally Posted by Leah Frances View Post
Point of Fact: Did you get this work 'inspected'? Were you issued a rough-in permit? From your post it sounds like you had an electrician look at it. Was he the electrical inspector?
The house was inspected by an inspector who is also on the home inspection board for St Louis, where the work took place (a suburb of STL). He was a licensed electrician that began doing residential inspections later in his career.

Then, I had a licensed electrician relative (the commercial inspector) look at all the work that myself and the licensed electrician did on the parts of the house we rewired.

Finally, after doing the bedrooms, hallway and living room the house was inspected along with the rough-in of the basement for code (I did both at same time and I will have them come back out when I finish the electric for the kitchen and the basement addition).

So, yes, it was inspected and grandfathered in on all the original work so the kitchen IS up to code as it's grandfathered in and it wasn't altered. The new work I did was checked by a relative but *also* inspected upon completion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leah Frances
Point of Order: pointing out errors IS the best way to welcome a new forum member. The whole point of the OP was to vet your plan, right? So, be careful what you ask for.
I agree, and I'm glad for all the help. But, look back at all the posts, I was never anything but unkind but was attacked for "multiple code violations" and that I did everything wrong.

"a red wire on the grounding bar is an automatic fail"

Really? That's the best way? It passed code. If it passed code then why is it even an argument?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spark Plug
That when you're dealing with Electrical wiring and Gas, you can not rely on the word of the sales clerk/s because they don't have the technical training or experience in the particular field that they're selling.
Yes, of course, I never once said I asked one of the knuckleheads at the big box store how to wire the outlet. I did my own research on the NEC Code Book for 2008 (the newest one the library had), but, I was unsure of the correct wiring with the language contained on Isolated Ground Circuits, then, the pro I asked mentioned that it's "up for debate, there's two ways to do it" so I looked at two different wiring books.

One was Black and Decker, the other was Home Depot. I'm not saying their associates know all, but I doubt that a major corporation would risk a lawsuit without doing all due-diligence. I see the link you provide Leah, I'm sure it happens, but I'd be hard pressed to think that Home Depot and Black & Decker would write a book and not have NEC fact-checked for errors that would leave them liable for hundreds of thousands of dollars in lawsuits.

What more could I have done? It passed inspection when I bought the house, it was approved by a commercial electrical inspector, then it passed inspection. I read the sections in the NEC Code book, I looked at my county residential code restrictions (was basically useless), and then on the one thing I didn't have a firm understanding I read two books on it. I rented out about half a dozen electrical books in all from the library, to get best practices; but it was the isolated ground for a plastic box that I had trouble nailing down.

Thanks again to everyone who's helped!
jdm001 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2009, 12:29 PM   #56
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Brooklyn, New York (NYC)
Posts: 1,124
Rewards Points: 500
Unhappy

Correct wiring diagram for 1 story house


Jdm100 (Poster #58). I won't respond with the quote/s because it's too long. I'll just raise a few points. As Leah Fraunces pointed out in another post. That in case a claim is put forward, one of the first things the Insurance co. is looking for, is whether the work was inspected and you have a certificate that states so. The fact that you had Two Inspectors look at your work in an informal way is not much help without the proper paperwork to prove it. Then, about the Red wire that was used for Ground. If it was remarked with Green tape, it is debatable whether it's good or not. But if you left it with the original color, it's a clear Code violation (and against common sense, too.) no matter how many times you had it inspected!!!!

Last edited by spark plug; 12-28-2009 at 12:30 PM. Reason: Missing letter ("S").
spark plug is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2010, 07:17 PM   #57
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 63
Rewards Points: 75
Default

Correct wiring diagram for 1 story house


To all whom have commented on this topic, thanks again. I recently had my inspection, and it went well. I passed. The inspector happened to be a worker that used to work for the power company and retired to become a home insector, so he was a great help regarding the Isolated/Dedicated Ground issue.

He pointed out, as many have said, that an isolated or dedicated ground any outlet on it's own circuit. Since it only has one grounded line going back to the box, it will acccomplish the same exact thing as my setup.

HOWEVER, he said that the orange "dedicated ground" outlet does serve a purpose. A future homeowner may see a dedicated outlet and not know he can't jump another line off it, and now it is no longer a dedicated outlet.

When using an orange outlet, it has an extra screw that is also used for a ground. The common installation is to use 12/3 with 4 wires: Hot, Neutral (as normal), Red-Hot (used as a ground), and Green Ground (as normal). The extra red is just another ground with a better conductor for grounding. While saying "it's double grounded so it must be better" it's funny but also true, it's really not doing much.

However, I wanted a bright orange outlet to let people know 1) this is a special outlet for my expensive equipment... don't touch. and 2) prevent anyone in the future from running anything else off it.

Finally, my rough drawing I first posted was pretty bad, I drew it up first to try to explain my wiring. To show what I provided before & after the inspection, i'm attaching the drawing I provided for the basement (where I used the iso ground on the middle/eastern wall). It's a little better than the first one
Attached Thumbnails
Correct wiring diagram for 1 story house-image005.jpg  
jdm001 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2010, 09:48 PM   #58
nap
You talking to me?
 
nap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: sw mi
Posts: 5,407
Rewards Points: 2,000
Default

Correct wiring diagram for 1 story house


Quote:
HOWEVER, he said that the orange "dedicated ground" outlet does serve a purpose. A future homeowner may see a dedicated outlet and not know he can't jump another line off it, and now it is no longer a dedicated outlet.
your installation, from what I can see, is not to code. It's hard to tell as the drawing is small but this is what I see that doesn't appear to be to code.

It appears you do not have enough receps in the large room or the room in the upper left. You can have no more than 12 feet (wall measurement and I am guessing the grid is 6" per division) between receps.

If you are required to follow the 08 NEC, any recep in a living space must be AFCI protected (you could have done so and simply not indicated them. Just mentioning the requirement in case you haven't protected them)

I see no lighting outlet for the stairs

I only see switches indicated in the stairway. I am guessing you just did not indicate them in the other rooms

Quote:
The extra red is just another ground with a better conductor for grounding. While saying "it's double grounded so it must be better" it's funny but also true, it's really not doing much.
the insulated conductor is the same as the bare conductor as far as conductivity and size. and no, it is not true that double grounded must be better. Each EGC to an iso grounded recep serves a different purpose. There is nothing "double grounded". In fact, if it is "double grounded" (as in both EGC's are bonded to both the EGC terminal and the recep yoke), the installation is illegal as you are not allowed to install parallel grounds for this size of wire.

Now, I don't know if this is your main panel or a sub but if it is a sub, you need to install an iso ground bar and run a separate iso ground conductor to the main panel. Joining the iso and normal EGC's in a sub defeats the purpose of using an iso ground.
nap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2010, 10:02 PM   #59
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 63
Rewards Points: 75
Default

Correct wiring diagram for 1 story house


Quote:
Originally Posted by nap View Post
It appears you do not have enough receps in the large room or the room in the upper left. You can have no more than 12 feet (wall measurement and I am guessing the grid is 6" per division) between receps.

If you are required to follow the 08 NEC, any recep in a living space must be AFCI protected (you could have done so and simply not indicated them. Just mentioning the requirement in case you haven't protected them)

I see no lighting outlet for the stairs

I only see switches indicated in the stairway. I am guessing you just did not indicate them in the other rooms
Ah, good catch. I did the basement in 3 sections and the back bedroom WAS done later so it's only showing the light & switch. I did all the basement lights on a single circuit with a 3 way switch, and a couple independent lights. The bedroom had 2 additional outlets, covering the 12 foot rule. Great catch, it's hard to see on there with as shrunken as it is.

There is a light in the hallway stairwell, it didn't come through but it's right in the middle on the way from the 3 way switch.... man, that was a tricky one to do also!

Quote:
Originally Posted by nap View Post
Each EGC to an iso grounded recep serves a different purpose. There is nothing "double grounded". In fact, if it is "double grounded" (as in both EGC's are bonded to both the EGC terminal and the recep yoke), the installation is illegal as you are not allowed to install parallel grounds for this size of wire.

Now, I don't know if this is your main panel or a sub but if it is a sub, you need to install an iso ground bar and run a separate iso ground conductor to the main panel. Joining the iso and normal EGC's in a sub defeats the purpose of using an iso ground.
See, that's what I wasn't sure about and tried to confirm. The inspsector said it was "correct" but i did ground the grounds to the same grounding bar that I did with everything else in the box. It is to the main panel, not a sub.

I've also seen where the ground is run outside the box and grounded to a water pipe instead of going all the way into the box, but that doesn't make sense to me. I'd have to have a junction box somewhere near my main service panel, just to "jump out" the red "extra" ground.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nap View Post
the insulated conductor is the same as the bare conductor as far as conductivity and size. and no, it is not true that double grounded must be better.
Oh, and I know it's not "double grounded it's better" I meant that even though it was said jokingly early in this thead by someone else, it's correct (that it doesn't do anything "better" for you). Two grounds are not better than one.

It was funny, but I'm really doing the special outlet so that it's not attached to anything else in the panel; and I think an orange outlet would stand out both outside the wall, and inside since it doesn't have yokes to extend it past to another outlet.

Great points Nap!
jdm001 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2010, 10:14 PM   #60
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Brooklyn, New York (NYC)
Posts: 1,124
Rewards Points: 500
Lightbulb

Correct wiring diagram for 1 story house


Poster # 57. As nap (Poster # 58) points out that the extra "grounding conductor" attached to the same receptacle and line essentially "Defeats the purpose of the Isolated Ground. In its purest sense, the concept of the Isolated ground was --as it proved to make a difference-- in data processing and storage. Where, the regular ground to which the outlet was tied in) picked up all kinds of contaminants and electrical "Noise", which was harmful to the operations. On the other hand, the Isolated Ground was connected directly to the Main Grounding bar of the building. Beside the Code violation and hazardous condition that was created, (by running a parallel path to ground) the entire purpose of the Isolated Ground was defeated. It does not even make sense from an economical point of view. A standard (Duplex) receptacle can be had for 70c.@ retail price. An Isolated Ground receptacle is priced @ $ 19.99 and upwards. (The ultimate symbol of confusion.)

spark plug is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
question, running cable, wiring


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Looking for a HVAC control wiring diagram garya505 HVAC 3 10-09-2009 10:01 PM
wiring diagram question screenporch21 Electrical 10 11-30-2008 08:14 PM
Wiring diagram for this basement eternalmma Electrical 9 03-31-2008 06:39 PM
Wiring diagram, would this work firemanpato Electrical 10 01-07-2008 04:33 PM
Cost of replacing old knob ant tube wiring in house bikerboy337 Electrical 3 03-26-2005 08:50 AM




Top of Page | View New Posts

Copyright © 2003-2014 Escalate Media. All Rights Reserved.