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Old 12-08-2008, 07:45 PM   #1
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Copper Industry Says: Use bigger wires!


http://www.copper.org/applications/e...onesizeup.html

The copper industry has a "One Size Up" program. They recommend using one size larger than the NEC requires, arguing that the energy saved will offset the cost of the wire in the long run.

Let me do some back of the envelope:

I-squared-R losses

100 feet, 12 gauge wire, 5 amps: 4.6 watts

10 gauge instead: 3.0 watts

Savings, 1.6 watts

Lets multiply this by 3 for the whole house: 4.8 watts.

That's 3.4 Kwh/month, about 17 cents.

Hmm... sounds like it would take about 20-30 years to pay back the cost.

I wonder if you could find an electrician willing to wire outlets with 10 gauge in the first place though.

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Old 12-08-2008, 08:10 PM   #2
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Copper Industry Says: Use bigger wires!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigs View Post
http://www.copper.org/applications/e...onesizeup.html

The copper industry has a "One Size Up" program. They recommend using one size larger than the NEC requires, arguing that the energy saved will offset the cost of the wire in the long run.

Let me do some back of the envelope:

I-squared-R losses

100 feet, 12 gauge wire, 5 amps: 4.6 watts

10 gauge instead: 3.0 watts

Savings, 1.6 watts

Lets multiply this by 3 for the whole house: 4.8 watts.

That's 3.4 Kwh/month, about 17 cents.

Hmm... sounds like it would take about 20-30 years to pay back the cost.

I wonder if you could find an electrician willing to wire outlets with 10 gauge in the first place though.
Haha they just want your money for bigger wire than is nessecary, thats all.

I have seen in a commercial setting where 10gauge wire is used on 20 amp circuits and once it get to the first outlet box, its 12 gauge to the outlet and all the downstream outlets. Ive seen this primarily where the run to the first outlet is a long one from the panel, and the next outlets are pretty close by. Makes sense in terms of voltage drop where heavy loads will be used, but in a residential I can't imagine the longest run even needing the extra heavy wire to combat any sort of voltage drop.

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Old 12-08-2008, 09:29 PM   #3
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Copper Industry Says: Use bigger wires!


At least copper prices are going down.

500' 12awg THHN down to $45, was $55 for a long time.

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Old 12-08-2008, 10:20 PM   #4
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Copper Industry Says: Use bigger wires!


I guess it might make sense in some commercial settings with large fixed loads that use a lot more kwh
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Old 12-09-2008, 07:21 AM   #5
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Copper Industry Says: Use bigger wires!


How much it would save, would vary with the individual home.
Homes with heat pumps would save a lot more.

In the average home with a fossil fuel heat source, it would probably be 20 to 30 dollars a year savings.

Average domestic refrigerator, runs 60 percent of the time.
A/C has a high starting amp draw, and larger wire would help decrease it, and the compressor would get to speed quicker, lowering starting and operating cost.

Furnaces, run for several 1000 hours a year, they would also have lower electrical operating cost. Of 2 or more KW a year, depending on size, and blower motor type.
.746KW to the horse power, which is over 6 amps for the blower motor alone. And that would be a 100% efficienct blower motor.

It would still take longer then just 2 or 3 years, at 10 cents a KWH. But it would be a quick payback in those areas that are at 17 cents a KWH.
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Old 12-09-2008, 09:12 AM   #6
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Copper Industry Says: Use bigger wires!


Just my opinion, if you have back stab connections to your receptacles and switches, redoing them with the screw connections will save more energy than one size heavier wires would.

Now you do get to use 20 amps of continuous load and also install standard receptacles when you string 10 gauge wire. (Continuous loading allows 80% or 16 amps for 12 gauge while 30 amp breakers don't support standard receptacles.)

Don't forget, you'll need larger outlet boxes in many places due to box fill rules and the stiffness of the wires.

Last edited by AllanJ; 12-09-2008 at 01:20 PM.
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Old 12-09-2008, 10:53 AM   #7
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Copper Industry Says: Use bigger wires!


Sounds like a great deal for everyone except the HO.
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Old 12-09-2008, 12:45 PM   #8
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Copper Industry Says: Use bigger wires!


Well, I'm sold. I'm rewiring my house now with 2" x 3" copper bars to every receptacle. Just to make sure I get them insulated, I'll enclose them in a double walled glass vacuum tubes, with the inner tube circulating liquid nitrogen. I'm digging the ditch to the poco transformer now. I'm running solid silver rods, 2000 kcmil, just to be on the safe side. Wouldn't want too much voltage drop. I built the fractional distillation plant last night that will process my liquid nitrogen from the atmosphere. So I'm almost ready to order my bars.
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Old 12-09-2008, 12:59 PM   #9
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Copper Industry Says: Use bigger wires!


That would work opposite.
You forgot about AC skin effect.
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Old 12-09-2008, 12:59 PM   #10
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Copper Industry Says: Use bigger wires!


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Originally Posted by InPhase277 View Post
Well, I'm sold. I'm rewiring my house now with 2" x 3" copper bars to every receptacle. Just to make sure I get them insulated, I'll enclose them in a double walled glass vacuum tubes, with the inner tube circulating liquid nitrogen. I'm digging the ditch to the poco transformer now. I'm running solid silver rods, 2000 kcmil, just to be on the safe side. Wouldn't want too much voltage drop. I built the fractional distillation plant last night that will process my liquid nitrogen from the atmosphere. So I'm almost ready to order my bars.

Im thinking 3 phase drop to your house to be safe, put a specialty 3-phase transformer with silver windings instead, liquid nitrogen cooling, some leds to make it look nice. Your cable drop should have all silver center conductor, hell, the cable should be silver pipe with a pvc jacket.

Paralell the silver 2000 kcmil rods just to be extra safe.


Your grounds should be 45 ft silver rods with 2000kcmil silver ground conductors.

The International Bill Gates electrical code REQUIRES that you use 2000kcmil silver rods for your SE.

*edit*

I forgot that you must use twisted pair extra shielded (silver pipe) for all connections.

You must have an isolation transformer after the 3-phase transformer, not to mention the voltage regulator. All wired WITH silver.

Last edited by rgsgww; 12-09-2008 at 01:02 PM.
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Old 12-09-2008, 01:30 PM   #11
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Copper Industry Says: Use bigger wires!


I'm making my own source of unlimited power, like they had in this movie.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forbidden_Planet
I'm also going to have a creature that acts to fulfill my unconscious wishes, like they had in this movie.
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Old 12-09-2008, 01:56 PM   #12
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Copper Industry Says: Use bigger wires!


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I'm making my own source of unlimited power, like they had in this movie.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forbidden_Planet
I'm also going to have a creature that acts to fulfill my unconscious wishes, like they had in this movie.
One of my favorite movies. Have you already built the 9200 nuclear reactors, or will you build them in place inside the planet? And what's your solution to plasma confinement? Will you be using magnetic confinement or some variation on inertial?
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Old 12-09-2008, 03:38 PM   #13
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Copper Industry Says: Use bigger wires!


One thing to keep in mind. One foot of wire has resistance. I wonder why Tom Henry once told our class that "if he was building a house for himself he would increase all branch circuits one size up". I just remembered his comment and thought it might have some merit?
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Old 12-09-2008, 04:05 PM   #14
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Copper Industry Says: Use bigger wires!


I'm paying $0.20449 per killowatt, I think I'm borderline. Sounds like I'd save about $7.38/year if my house used 300 ft (but also don't know how much #10 vs. #12 goes for).
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Old 12-09-2008, 04:52 PM   #15
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Copper Industry Says: Use bigger wires!


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Originally Posted by InPhase277 View Post
Have you already built the 9200 nuclear reactors, or will you build them in place inside the planet? And what's your solution to plasma confinement? Will you be using magnetic confinement or some variation on inertial?
Of course!

BTW, you know the expression "Adversity defines us"? This creature was only visible when being fired upon. Talk about adversity!

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