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Old 02-17-2009, 04:11 PM   #31
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Converting Main Panel to Sub: How to jumper?


Very nice, looks clean & organized

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Old 02-17-2009, 10:39 PM   #32
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Converting Main Panel to Sub: How to jumper?


If you look at your all in one service panel it appears your neutral buss is already isolated, you had to install a bonding jumper to bond the buss to the enclosure. Install a ground buss on the right side of the breakers & transfer the ground wires over.
Secondly... No inspection?? How do you expect the utility company to approve this install without a city permit, not to mention has the utility company approved the new meter location/ service drop? I have delt with a couple of inspectors who get their panties in a bunch when you try to get around the inspection process. (And you thought having the ol lady pissed off at you was bad) Good Luck
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Old 02-18-2009, 09:14 AM   #33
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Converting Main Panel to Sub: How to jumper?


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I finally got a photo of the completed panel for those of you who are interested in the final result. The key was to remove the guts that were there to hold the meter. Once that was removed there was plenty of space to mount a neutral bar - isolated from the panel. I added another ground bar to keep things clean - so there is a ground bar up on the left and another one basically where the combined neutral/ground bar was before - down to the right, both connected via a #6 ground wire, connected to the main panel and also grounded locally to a rebar in the ground. I also cut off one the copper bars and then moved the main lugs over. I still want to redo the left panel cover or maybe make a new cover for the whole thing.
I only see 3 conductors coming into the left side -2 hots and a neutral. Is there an equipment grounding conductor I can't see? or did you rebond the neutral here?


Connecting to the planet earth doesn't operate circuit breakers.
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Old 02-18-2009, 02:44 PM   #34
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Converting Main Panel to Sub: How to jumper?


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If you look at your all in one service panel it appears your neutral buss is already isolated
All in one's are never isolated because....well because it's designed as a service entrance panel.





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Is there an equipment grounding conductor I can't see?
It's the green one


Last edited by 220/221; 02-18-2009 at 02:47 PM.
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Old 02-18-2009, 02:56 PM   #35
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I don't get warm fuzzies about the branch neutrals running under the main lugs like that. If the insulation were to rub through on those you'd have fireworks.

Last edited by Gigs; 02-18-2009 at 02:58 PM.
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Old 02-18-2009, 03:05 PM   #36
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I don't get warm fuzzies about the branch neutrals running under the main lugs like that. If the insulation were to rub through on those you'd have fireworks.
Yeah, with earthquakes in CA that could happen
In maybe 100-200 years

I would have taped that white main neutral all the way to the neutral bar
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Old 02-18-2009, 03:35 PM   #37
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Yeah, with earthquakes in CA that could happen
In maybe 100-200 years
Well that's the thing about electrical work. Even a crappy job will probably be fine most of the time.

I just don't like the idea of loose conductors rattling around under an uninsulated, unfused, square metal edge. It appears he could have run them on the other side anyway.

Anyway he can take the advice or leave it, that was just the thing I noticed.
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Old 02-18-2009, 04:05 PM   #38
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Converting Main Panel to Sub: How to jumper?


I
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just don't like the idea of loose conductors rattling around under an uninsulated, unfused, square metal edge.
They are fused at 200A

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I don't get warm fuzzies about the branch neutrals running under the main lugs like that. If the insulation were to rub through on those you'd have fireworks.
I know what you mean though. I try my best to keep things separated but if I start to obsess, I think of how close a lot of insulted electrical components are and move on. Triplex conductors ares actually wrapped around a bare wire the entire length and those are unfused.
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Old 02-18-2009, 04:13 PM   #39
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Though I commend the the final result as being better than I expected. IMO an inspector will not accept it.

If there is one thing they don't want to see it is a service rated only panel modified from 3 wire to 4 wire feed. They would have to stick their neck out a long ways by allowing the listing to be voided. I wouldn't want to be the inspector if I had to answer for accepting that panel...he would have no leg to stand on if it came down to litigation.

Just my opinion.
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Old 02-18-2009, 09:29 PM   #40
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Sweet! I'm impressed. A sheet metal shop should be able to whip up a simple cover.

Did the factory bus feeding the main breaker get tweaked a bit when you tightened down the lugs?

I can't really see how you installed the main lugs but I asume it is a good connection.
Yeah, Thanks. For the lugs I simply removed them from the old copper piece, cut down one of the existing main bus bars and then had to use a dremel tool to grind the the edges of it so the lugs would fit on it. The lugs attach using a screw on the inside and then the main inset bolt tightens it down further. Yes, I had to hold the copper bar with a pair of pliers while cranking the bolts tight and it was tough to do both and tighten the bolts as much as I wanted. (Don't want any looseness there.)
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Old 02-18-2009, 09:31 PM   #41
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I only see 3 conductors coming into the left side -2 hots and a neutral. Is there an equipment grounding conductor I can't see? or did you rebond the neutral here?


Connecting to the planet earth doesn't operate circuit breakers.
Yes, there is a green gound coming in from the main panel. You can see it coming up to the top ground bar, and then down to the lower ground bar.
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Old 02-18-2009, 09:39 PM   #42
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Well that's the thing about electrical work. Even a crappy job will probably be fine most of the time.

I just don't like the idea of loose conductors rattling around under an uninsulated, unfused, square metal edge. It appears he could have run them on the other side anyway.

Anyway he can take the advice or leave it, that was just the thing I noticed.
So, you're calling this a "crappy job"? Those neutrals were a bit short to run on the other side. I didn't like it either, but I wouldn't call it unsafe. It's not like a mobile home or trailer, so there's not much chance of rubbing and movement. In any case, thanks for the comments. I'll take another look at it.
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Old 02-18-2009, 09:42 PM   #43
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Though I commend the the final result as being better than I expected. IMO an inspector will not accept it.

If there is one thing they don't want to see it is a service rated only panel modified from 3 wire to 4 wire feed. They would have to stick their neck out a long ways by allowing the listing to be voided. I wouldn't want to be the inspector if I had to answer for accepting that panel...he would have no leg to stand on if it came down to litigation.

Just my opinion.
As long as the inspector can come up with a good reason to reject the panel, I'll maybe play ball. If it's just because it's "not rated" or "UL listed"...well, that's not reason enough for me and I'd argue. Like I said, in the commercial world panels are modified all the time, so what's the big deal?
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Old 02-19-2009, 12:25 AM   #44
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Converting Main Panel to Sub: How to jumper?


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As long as the inspector can come up with a good reason to reject the panel, I'll maybe play ball. If it's just because it's "not rated" or "UL listed"...well, that's not reason enough for me and I'd argue. Like I said, in the commercial world panels are modified all the time, so what's the big deal?
In my 15 years in industrial and commercial our people never modified or converted panels outside of their listing...we added accessories and changed out the guts and converted panels to subs within the listing but you simply were not allowed to do what you did to a service rated only panel. I'd like to see my inspectors face if he saw me using a dremel on the bus bars.....

Anyway I commend you on your resourcefulness and I have no problem with what you did...hey I grew up on a farm...if my grandpa had done what you did it would have been ...ugly....

But I'm not going to slap you on the back for trying to save a buck and inadvertently causing a hazard that is unnoticeable to the eye.

carry on
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Old 02-19-2009, 12:25 PM   #45
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Converting Main Panel to Sub: How to jumper?


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In my 15 years in industrial and commercial our people never modified or converted panels outside of their listing...we added accessories and changed out the guts and converted panels to subs within the listing but you simply were not allowed to do what you did to a service rated only panel. I'd like to see my inspectors face if he saw me using a dremel on the bus bars.....

Anyway I commend you on your resourcefulness and I have no problem with what you did...hey I grew up on a farm...if my grandpa had done what you did it would have been ...ugly....

But I'm not going to slap you on the back for trying to save a buck and inadvertently causing a hazard that is unnoticeable to the eye.

carry on
I appreciate the input, but will ask again: Do you see an actual problem? Not some bureaocratic, contrived problem, but an actual satety issue?

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