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Old 09-04-2013, 09:31 PM   #31
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Connecting lights to 20A circuit


Any one know why they don't like lights on Small Appliance Branch Circuits ?
There must be a practicule reason for it ?

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Old 09-04-2013, 11:08 PM   #32
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Connecting lights to 20A circuit


Safety reasons -- SABC carries some serious loads. A toaster might draw 10, a George foreman grill 12 etc. the lights would just take up much needed capacity. plus blown circuit leaves you in the dark.

Practical Reason -- lights dim when appliances turn on. very annoying. my kitchen (before I rewired it) had a "master circuit" with just about everything on one.
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Old 09-05-2013, 06:59 AM   #33
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Connecting lights to 20A circuit


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Originally Posted by dmxtothemax View Post
Any one know why they don't like lights on Small Appliance Branch Circuits ?
There must be a practicule reason for it ?
They are required for actual small appliances... no particular safety reason, just the fact that the kitchen area is going to have appliances that require more circuits.
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Old 09-06-2013, 04:43 PM   #34
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Connecting lights to 20A circuit


I'm told that this applies to more than just lights. I planned on wiring a hood fan to a SABC but the code states that "no outlets" shall be connected to SABC. I assume this applies to garbage disposals, local water filter (i.e,. mine has a small pump), and whatever else you may have that doesn't plug into the receptacles on the counter top.

I think NEC has gone a little too far with the SABC code. They already require a minimum of 2 SABC 20A circuits in the kitchen besides having separate circuits for a dishwasher and fridge. In my case, I have 4 SABC 20A circuits in my kitchen plus a 20A circuit for a dishwasher, a 20A circuit for a fridge, and a 20A circuit for a garbage disposal and water filter. I also have a 50A circuit for a cooktop and 30A circuit for an oven and a 15A circuit for lights. Given all this power, one would think that I have a massive kitchen but it only measures 10'x14'.

I think NEC should have specified a minimum total available power for small appliances--that is, total "uncommitted power" at the receptacles -- and let the owner distribute the power to best suit the kitchen layout. In my case, I had a single circuit that fed a receptacle at a 24" counter space on one side of the stove and it also fed a hood fan. This arrangement is against code. I had to either connect the receptacle to another SABC or connect the hood fan to a non-SABC circuit.

Another example is that it is okay to plug a microwave into a SABC receptacle but not okay to direct wire a microwave to a SABC.
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Old 09-06-2013, 09:37 PM   #35
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Connecting lights to 20A circuit


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I'm told that this applies to more than just lights. I planned on wiring a hood fan to a SABC but the code states that "no outlets" shall be connected to SABC. I assume this applies to garbage disposals, local water filter (i.e,. mine has a small pump), and whatever else you may have that doesn't plug into the receptacles on the counter top.
That's right. SABC's are for countertop receptacles only. Nothing else.

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I think NEC has gone a little too far with the SABC code. They already require a minimum of 2 SABC 20A circuits in the kitchen besides having separate circuits for a dishwasher and fridge. In my case, I have 4 SABC 20A circuits in my kitchen plus...
There are only two SABC's by code. Any other circuits would not be designated as SABC's, and could have whatever you want on them.
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Old 09-07-2013, 11:45 AM   #36
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Connecting lights to 20A circuit


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That's right. SABC's are for countertop receptacles only. Nothing else.

That is simply untrue.... I can wire my kitchen and dining room receptacles on the same circuit, I do need two circuits for the countertop area though.
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Old 09-07-2013, 11:46 AM   #37
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Connecting lights to 20A circuit


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Originally Posted by rojo527 View Post
I'm told that this applies to more than just lights. I planned on wiring a hood fan to a SABC but the code states that "no outlets" shall be connected to SABC. I assume this applies to garbage disposals, local water filter (i.e,. mine has a small pump), and whatever else you may have that doesn't plug into the receptacles on the counter top.

I think NEC has gone a little too far with the SABC code. They already require a minimum of 2 SABC 20A circuits in the kitchen besides having separate circuits for a dishwasher and fridge. In my case, I have 4 SABC 20A circuits in my kitchen plus a 20A circuit for a dishwasher, a 20A circuit for a fridge, and a 20A circuit for a garbage disposal and water filter. I also have a 50A circuit for a cooktop and 30A circuit for an oven and a 15A circuit for lights. Given all this power, one would think that I have a massive kitchen but it only measures 10'x14'.

I think NEC should have specified a minimum total available power for small appliances--that is, total "uncommitted power" at the receptacles -- and let the owner distribute the power to best suit the kitchen layout. In my case, I had a single circuit that fed a receptacle at a 24" counter space on one side of the stove and it also fed a hood fan. This arrangement is against code. I had to either connect the receptacle to another SABC or connect the hood fan to a non-SABC circuit.

Another example is that it is okay to plug a microwave into a SABC receptacle but not okay to direct wire a microwave to a SABC.
Your logic on the subject is ignorant... you simply don't understand what they are trying to accomplish.
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Old 09-08-2013, 04:00 PM   #38
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Connecting lights to 20A circuit


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That is simply untrue.... I can wire my kitchen and dining room receptacles on the same circuit, I do need two circuits for the countertop area though.
I'm confused. Isn't that exactly the same thing I said? Only countertop receptacles can be on a SABC, nothing else. But you can have as many non-SABC circuits in the kitchen as you want, as long as you have the two required SABC's that serve nothing but kitchen receptacles.

EDIT: I see what you mean. You're right. The SABCs can supply other food service areas in addition to the kitchen countertops, as long as they also serve the kitchen countertops and do not serve non-food-service areas.
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Last edited by mpoulton; 09-08-2013 at 04:03 PM.
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Old 09-08-2013, 08:34 PM   #39
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Connecting lights to 20A circuit


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Originally Posted by dmxtothemax View Post
Any one know why they don't like lights on Small Appliance Branch Circuits ?
There must be a practicule reason for it ?
Bonjour Dmxtothemax.,

In France our codes we do not allow any lumiaires on the SABC ( SABC ) either and that was written for very obovus reason due if you do trip the SABC the luminaries go out you are stuck in dark so that one reason why we don't allow it.

Second thing the luminaires are on it own circuit. ( normally we do minuim of 2 or more depending on the luminaire and set up )

We know it was written in NEC code for a quite while I think it was enforced sometime early 80's but I do not have the NEC code book that go that far back so hard to say but I know in my old '84 NEC edition it did mention there.

Merci,
Marie et Marc
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Old 09-09-2013, 12:20 PM   #40
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Connecting lights to 20A circuit


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Your logic on the subject is ignorant... you simply don't understand what they are trying to accomplish.
I think you made my point. I hear several electricians interpret the same codes differently, all claiming to know what was intended but not knowing how to explain it other than saying "you simply don't understand."

The NEC states the electrical codes, most of which are unambiguous and fairly obvious as to the reasons behind it, others subject to interpretation and only a guess as to why the code exists. I'm sure the concept of a small-appliance-branch-circuit has some basis but it's intention is not stated in the NEC. I suppose this is not unlike any book of laws and maybe it's the best we can do. So be it.
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Old 09-09-2013, 06:17 PM   #41
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Connecting lights to 20A circuit


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Originally Posted by frenchelectrican View Post
Bonjour Dmxtothemax.,

In France our codes we do not allow any lumiaires on the SABC ( SABC ) either and that was written for very obovus reason due if you do trip the SABC the luminaries go out you are stuck in dark so that one reason why we don't allow it.
Merci,
Marie et Marc
This is why we here in Australia dont put lights on the same circuits as power points,(you would call them recepticules).

Lights have there circuits,
And power points have there own circuits.
So hopefully if you blow a circuit, usually its a power circuit,
then your not in the dark.

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