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Old 03-01-2009, 08:42 PM   #31
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Confused wiring


Thanks, Marc. I did test with a friend's meter also (since I thought my DMM might somehow be altering the phase), same result. 0V red to black, and either is 123V to neutral.

Re the tandem - seems I have space to put in another (two) breaker(s), so I'll certainly do this down the line. I also realize that the shared MW circuits should probably be double poles since killing one circuit without the other may lead to a potential shock-hazard on the shared neutral.

I know an engineer at ConEd. Perhaps I'll call him and see what he says and, if warranted, whether he can shake the bushes.

Cheers
Tyro

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Old 03-01-2009, 08:51 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Bocolo View Post
Why are there no grounds?
Hi Bocolo - as I understand it, the ground for any box is provided by the bx armor. The massive neutral at the top of the neutral bar bonds the panel (at the ring at the bottom) to the neutral bus, and also runs off to some independent ground (through it's own bx).

None of my cables have an independent "green/bare" wire, just black (and/or red) and white. All my switches/receptacle ground screws are connected to the back of their metal box with green 12AGW and a green screw w/ plate. I have always found continuity to ground in the house...

Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong....

Cheers
Tyro
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Old 03-01-2009, 08:52 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Bocolo View Post
Why are there no grounds?
New member here, just stumbled on this site. I am finding it very interesting...so far. Ia m a Elec Contractor in WA State.

The ground is the tiny little "spike" you see coming out of the connector on the top of the panel. They usually snipped it off at an inch or so and as long as it is in the connector a ground is made.

If you removed the light bulbs during your testing you would probably lose your "ghost voltage" a little voltage will backfeed through the filament in the light bulb. This could also happen if you have an electric hot water tank. If you really only have 120 volts at your main breaker...(where the heck do you live??) which I really have a hard time believing, but seen worse, your other circuits could be getting their "power" through a backfeed.

Have you measured the voltage at your main in the lugs? This would be a great service call, a nice challenge
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Old 03-01-2009, 08:57 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyro View Post
Thanks, Marc. I did test with a friend's meter also (since I thought my DMM might somehow be altering the phase), same result. 0V red to black, and either is 123V to neutral.

Cheers
Tyro

Quote:
Originally Posted by unclduey View Post
Have you measured the voltage at your main in the lugs? This would be a great service call, a nice challenge

Unclduey ., I did confirmed his statement and I did asked him about useing diffrent voltmeter and he did which I underlinded it

so IMO sound like someone did really make a major Conneries at the transfomer connection that is the only other place I can think of unless he can get a flash photo of the transfomer connections there.

Merci,Marc
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Old 03-01-2009, 09:16 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by unclduey View Post
New member here, just stumbled on this site. I am finding it very interesting...so far. Ia m a Elec Contractor in WA State.

The ground is the tiny little "spike" you see coming out of the connector on the top of the panel. They usually snipped it off at an inch or so and as long as it is in the connector a ground is made.

If you removed the light bulbs during your testing you would probably lose your "ghost voltage" a little voltage will backfeed through the filament in the light bulb. This could also happen if you have an electric hot water tank. If you really only have 120 volts at your main breaker...(where the heck do you live??) which I really have a hard time believing, but seen worse, your other circuits could be getting their "power" through a backfeed.

Have you measured the voltage at your main in the lugs? This would be a great service call, a nice challenge
Hi UnclDuey - thanks for the response... perhaps you have corrected my "ground explanation" to Bocolo.

I did check voltage at the recessed lugs (upstream from the main breaker), and one lug to the other is 0V, either lug to the neutral bus is 123. I am guessing a possibility is that when the linemen repaired the utility pole they accidentally attached both "my legs" to the same side of the transformer. Or is this "impossible?"

Re the ghost voltage: the 20V is between the bare incoming black for the room and ground - there is no load in sight. The 20V disappears when said black's MW companion is switched off (or if said black is measured across a 400Ohm resistor to ground).... Water heater is gas methinks. So, I was thinking you could have capacitive coupling - the alternating current flowing in its twin is inducing voltage on the disconnected wire. Possible?

Cheers,
Tyro

PS: I live about 20 miles north of NYC, in NY. The wiring in this house (built 1970) is much more "complicated" (euphemism ) than I have seen in my previous homes in CA (1990) and MI (1958)).
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Old 03-01-2009, 09:17 PM   #36
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Thanks, I was just curious if he actually tested at the main lugs on the breaker. Sounds like he did. I too would like to see the transformer connection. How could the house possiblly operate without 240 volts?? No electric stove, HWT, heat,clothes dryer...I guess not!
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Old 03-01-2009, 09:18 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by frenchelectrican View Post
Unclduey ., I did confirmed his statement and I did asked him about useing diffrent voltmeter and he did which I underlinded it

so IMO sound like someone did really make a major Conneries at the transfomer connection that is the only other place I can think of unless he can get a flash photo of the transfomer connections there.

Merci,Marc
Marc - surely the connections are hidden from view?
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Old 03-01-2009, 09:24 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by unclduey View Post
Thanks, I was just curious if he actually tested at the main lugs on the breaker. Sounds like he did. I too would like to see the transformer connection. How could the house possiblly operate without 240 volts?? No electric stove, HWT, heat,clothes dryer...I guess not!
UnclDuey - stove is gas, heat is gas, dryer and washer are ancient and both labeled 120V (their receptacles are 120V to Neutral or Ground, also)... see, perhaps ConEd is right and 240V is a "privilege" Cannot wait for when they break down and all I can get are 240V models

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Old 03-01-2009, 09:30 PM   #39
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Marc - surely the connections are hidden from view?

Not if they are overhead service and you can follow that set of conductors back to the power post and see the transfomer you should able see the connection but if this is in underground then all bet is off due the enclose cover seal up.

Merci,Marc
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Old 03-01-2009, 09:34 PM   #40
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Hey Tyro, I guess anythings possible! If you are reading 0 volts between Blk-Red then you are on the same phase alright. Connect the transformer incorrectly?...I guess it would depend on the trans type, primary voltage etc.
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Old 03-01-2009, 09:42 PM   #41
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Thanks duey and welcome. We sure need more people willing to share their time and knowledge. It is appreciated.
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Old 03-01-2009, 09:53 PM   #42
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This what the typical North American transfomer look like

the three connectors in the front is low voltage connection what we called secondary connections the two cones on the top that is primary connection.

Your house should have all three conductors connected to the front of the transformer.

Merci,Marc
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Old 03-01-2009, 10:09 PM   #43
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Marc -

my feed is underground, but that's the transformer that was moved to a new pole at the end of my driveway. They left the old, cracked pole with ugly looking cable stuff in place. I'll take a look tomorrow (while shoveling the snow that's supposed to come) to see if anything odd's discernible.

Merci,
Tyro
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Old 03-02-2009, 09:50 AM   #44
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MWBC will oerheat the neutral if you do not have a 120/240 service. The neutral will carry the total of the two circuits insted of the difference. That means a 15 amp MWBC can have 30 amps on the neutral before eaither breaker trips. One side of each should be disconnected.
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Old 03-02-2009, 11:41 AM   #45
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Avoid using mwbcs, shut them off!

Your most likely on the same phase. It is possible your meterbase is miswired or the x-former.

The poco should be able to check these places.
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