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Old 10-01-2009, 09:52 PM   #16
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Confused about Sub Panel


Yes I know I need 220..And I did follow the electricians instructions. He knew I was going underground and coming from the house box to this subpanel. The black and white twisted wire is the ground that I made connected to the ground rod that I have in the ground. I put it in today, I made the wire with extra 12/2 just by twisting it together. I don't know but this looks allot like the 3 wire setup from the other post. Except it is using the bare ground for the neutral. As for the main wire going into the subpanel this is exactly what the Electrician picked out, he knew I was going underground. I asked about buying seperate wire for I was worried about fishing this big wire here through the conduit. he said this would be fine.

You know on a side note. I'm trying my best and am here for advice, just look at the posts where you-all electricians contradict each other, no wonder I am confused. No; I am not a licensed electrician, that's why I am here. Making fun of this gets me no-where. The guy at Homedepot is a licensed Electrician he said he had done it for 25 years, he is the supervisor. So I shouldn't have asked for his help? I took away from my experience with him that he knew what he is doing, and I still don't understand why the main wire won't work. I am sure you Licensed Electricians can't for the sake of going against some code tell me what is really going on here.

I'll just go back to Homedepot tomorrow and speak to the supervisor that told me to do it this way..thank you for your time.

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Old 10-01-2009, 09:53 PM   #17
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You can't use 12/2 to go to a ground rod

Code requires (2) hots, insulated neutral & insulated ground
Your wire does not have this
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Old 10-01-2009, 10:01 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Scuba_Dave View Post
You can't use 12/2 to go to a ground rod

Why ? It is only attached to the ground rod.
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Old 10-01-2009, 10:03 PM   #19
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Confused about Sub Panel


There is a specifc size wire required by code, #12 does not meet code
I used #4 wire
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Old 10-01-2009, 10:06 PM   #20
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Confused about Sub Panel


I think the best advice for you is to grab a couple books on basic wiring. They'll have wiring diagrams for sub panels and branch circuits, basic code requirements, and approved uses for wire types and fixtures. I can empathize with your situation. There are a lot of ways to make electricity "work" but only a few ways to do it safely and to code.
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Old 10-01-2009, 10:10 PM   #21
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Confused about Sub Panel


1. You can not use the bare wire as a current carring wire like neutral it is only used as ground.
2. You need 2 hots and a neutral plus the ground so you will have 240 and 120 circuits avalible.
3. the wire to the grounding electrode must be a bare wire or green.
4. because this is a subpanel you need a seperate ground bus bonded to the box and the neutral buss
5. because the conduit is buried it is considered wet and you need to use the aproprate cable or wires for wet installation.

In the main panel the two hots are connected to the double breaker and the neutral and ground are connected to the neutral buss. In your sub panel the two hots are connected to the two lugs in the center connected to the breaker busses, the neutral is connected to the neutral buss and the ground is connected to the yet to be added ground buss along with andy aditional cable grounds you bring in and the ground rod wire. The twisted blck and white wires will work for the ground but are not code compliant and could cause serious problems down the road.
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Old 10-01-2009, 10:13 PM   #22
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I still don't know why 2 individual sections of 12/2's twisted together is not adequate for a 3 foot length of wire attached to a ground rod. But what do I know.

Yes, as I mentioned earlier.....You ask 2 guys(electricians) and you get 12 answers. All of them saying the other guy is wrong. My friend at HomeDepot was off today, but I'll just talk to him tomorrow about all this, why he suggested we do this or that. Simple telling someone you can't do it this way with out any info as to the why gets confusing, especially when the next guy contradicts the first guy. I now know why some people take a break...Thank you for your help.
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Old 10-01-2009, 10:15 PM   #23
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Confused about Sub Panel


Scuba Dave 8:45PM. This is the problem that some beginning DIY'rs (this is not to knock their efforts, just enhancing practical solutions) lack the elementary knowledge of electrical installation. Then they receive (well intended) advice from home center floor personnel, who unfortunately do not have the required (in order to give informed advice) field experience. As an example, this OP wasn't aware of the different methods of wring in a Service panel and a Subpanel. If he (or she) were to follow the advice of the home center personnel, the result could have been disastrous. Luckily, there are extremely well informed --and experienced-- members on this website. IMHO, there is something highly valuable, beginners should do before starting work or buying the materials for their specific project. Pick up a book (of course after paying for it) at those home centers, that explain the basics of any project in home improvement. They give very clear and accurate step by step information. At the very least they will be informed about the details and will not be misled by useless information. (Sorry. nothing personal. But it's a fact that you can't rely on the instructions of HC personnel)!One guy says YES. ;The next guy says NO; Eliminate confusion; Through Education; Don't Drink and Drive, Ever!!!
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Old 10-01-2009, 10:16 PM   #24
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Per NEC Electrical code the wire to the ground rods must be no smaller then #6
I used #4 because I had it left over
There is no way around that or discussion
Opinions do not matter when the Code specifically states a Min requirement

Code also states a 4 wire feed to a sub-panel

3 wire used to be legal, it no longer is

I've spent over 12 years as a DIY on electric work at 2 different houses I have owned
I ended up buying the NEC 2005 codebook because I wanted to seperate fact from myth

2008 codebook is free online: it's a tough read

http://nfpaweb3.gvpi.net/rrserver/br...NFPASTD/7008SB
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Old 10-01-2009, 10:20 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by spark plug View Post
Scuba Dave 8:45PM. This is the problem that some beginning DIY'rs (this is not to knock their efforts, just enhancing practical solutions) lack the elementary knowledge of electrical installation. Then they receive (well intended) advice from home center floor personnel, who unfortunately do not have the required (in order to give informed advice) field experience. As an example, this OP wasn't aware of the different methods of wring in a Service panel and a Subpanel. If he (or she) were to follow the advice of the home center personnel, the result could have been disastrous. Luckily, there are extremely well informed --and experienced-- members on this website. IMHO, there is something highly valuable, beginners should do before starting work or buying the materials for their specific project. Pick up a book (of course after paying for it) at those home centers, that explain the basics of any project in home improvement. They give very clear and accurate step by step information. At the very least they will be informed about the details and will not be misled by useless information. (Sorry. nothing personal. But it's a fact that you can't rely on the instructions of HC personnel)!One guy says YES. ;The next guy says NO; Eliminate confusion; Through Education; Don't Drink and Drive, Ever!!!

This is funny..I'll show this post to the HomeCenter Supervisor tomorrow...lol....disasterous..thanks guys
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Old 10-01-2009, 10:29 PM   #26
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Confused about Sub Panel


stqevo,
One thing to keep in mind is that when someone says something is wrong, doesn't always mean it won't work. Being wrong may be a code violation like using the wrong color wire for ground or using white for hot and black for neutral. The color has no affect on the function but using the wrong color can cause serious complication for whomever comes after you.
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Old 10-01-2009, 10:33 PM   #27
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Confused about Sub Panel


Quote:
Originally Posted by stqevo View Post
This is funny..I'll show this post to the HomeCenter Supervisor tomorrow...lol....disasterous..thanks guys
Again. Nothing personal over here. But I've looked at the books at the Home Centers. From an electrician's perspective. They're great. And give everyone a great start. Good Luck! (No matter what) Don't Drink and Drive, Ever!!!
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Old 10-01-2009, 10:43 PM   #28
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Confused about Sub Panel


Quote:
Originally Posted by hayewe farm View Post
stqevo,
One thing to keep in mind is that when someone says something is wrong, doesn't always mean it won't work. Being wrong may be a code violation like using the wrong color wire for ground or using white for hot and black for neutral. The color has no affect on the function but using the wrong color can cause serious complication for whomever comes after you.
That's the whole point of the National Electrical Code. (or any other code). For example. A wiring system can be set, that the lights should work. But if not done the right way. A box could be energized (when it shouldn't). Then (maybe after several years) Someone walks by and makes contact with the junction box and ground. The result could be fatal. (No matter what)Don't Drink and Drive, Ever!!!
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Old 10-02-2009, 12:04 AM   #29
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Confused about Sub Panel


This is a good time to point out how EXTREMELY dangerous DIY projects can be. Unless you REALLY know what your doing you should hire a professional electrician to complete this task. Personally I think your in over your head.

I'm going to close this thread now. Listen to reason... call a pro and live.

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