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Old 08-24-2012, 03:06 PM   #1
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Configuration needed with safety and code in mind


???????How would you suggest I divide the following items up from -1- 20amp aluminum circuit to -3- new 20amp copper circuits?????? I am running 12/2.

...3 GFI outlets for counter (used once in a while),
...Fridge (outlet but not counter)
...Dishwasher...outlet or hardware have not decided.
...Gasstove /the ignitor and display (outlet but not counter)
...1 exhuast fan to the outside.
...1 hood/light fan (will probably eliminate)

....no Microwave yet but if so where? I could swap it out with the hood fan.

I am also putting the bathroom outlet on it's own circuit (new copper).



Please read the background info.

The Subpanel is a 40 pushmatic the service can not be upgraded, 8 AWG.

I am under the impression that pushmatic are good panels since its breakers get bolted to the bus but if the breakers need to be replaced they are expenive. I don't care for it and would upgrade.

This is the setup of the panel now, I guess it is impt to know that they pole from left to right and split up and down, if that makes sense. I note which are full and split. It has 6 spaces.


30 amp..AC)............. 30 amp (Blower)....(Two Phase for the Hvac -furnace/ AC)
full slot.......................... full slot


20amp..(Kitchen)....... 15 amp split...(Bathroom & bedroom)
full ..........................15 amp split... (Living room)


15amp (dinRm).....20amp split open
full ....................?amp open GFI

I will replace the 20 amp kitchen breaker with a split 20 amp (X2)
and the open breaker on the bottom right will also be a 20amp split (X2).
So that is a total of 3 new circuits and a replacement of one that exists. replacing Two breakers and adding Two.


Last edited by Jzone99; 08-24-2012 at 06:13 PM. Reason: Clarification
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Old 08-24-2012, 06:10 PM   #2
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Configuration needed with safety and code in mind


Are you crazy, do you want to start an argument? Do a search on this topic regarding Kitchen circuits, and every one of them becomes a huge bicker fest back and forth, how to do it better.

As for doing it correctly, first start by either making a phone call to your local city permit office, or search their website. Then suggest getting together with a local Sparky and having them do a walk through with what you have now, sit down over a beer or two with you, and plan out the changes.

As for how I would do it, figure what you have going into the space, that is not there already, and then go from there. If you only have two counters splitting the Kitchen sink, you can feed one 20 amp circuit per counter, and also can feed the baseboard outlets with those two outlets. Now of course you can in some places get away with putting the spark/clock for a gas stove on one of the 20 amp circuits, same as the stove.

Disposall & Dish washer, some places you can put both on a 20 amp circuit, but now you have to keep them on separate circuits.

Again, put it down on paper, make some phone calls, find a Sparky to invite over for a beer or two, and go through the plans. As long as you are going from Aluminum to Copper, you will be in good shape. The bad part gets going, is when people try to "fix" an aluminum circuit, without doing it right.

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Old 08-24-2012, 06:31 PM   #3
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Configuration needed with safety and code in mind


These seem to be the same questions reworded from this thread.

Only 40 amp service? Help?

Stop worrying about what was there and work on getting things compliant with the new code requirements.

You need 2 20 amp countertop small appliance circuits. These can feed the refrigerator and the gas igniter.

Add the range hood or exhaust fan to a lighting circuit.
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Old 08-24-2012, 08:26 PM   #4
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Configuration needed with safety and code in mind


Sorry about that...The other post was focusing on the panel setup and left off with possibley adding in another subpanel? Thought they are very relative , this post was asking about the wiring to appliance load. One affects the other and this is a DIY so I wanted an electrician to Chime in. I would imagine that your are correct as far as differences of opinion but I would not mind hearing a few

I can't put the kitchen exhaust fans on the lighting circuit, that is seemingly overloaded. Its 15 amp aluminum line and has:
the kitchen lights,
all of the bathroom lights,
shower fan,
the bath outlet, {will eventually be taken out of the equation),
the hall light, and the bedroom outlets.

I was hoping to go over a layout such as...
Assuming all are 20 amps, ut bdo they have to be?

Circuit 1 = Bathroom outlet

Circuit 2 = Fridge outlet and oven

Circuit 3 = Dishwasher and GFI couter outlet #1

Circuit 4 = Exhaust/hood fans, GFI counter outlets 2&3


Or

Circuit 1 = Bathroom outlet

Circuit 2 = Exhaust/hood fans, GFI counter #3, oven

Circuit 3 = Dishwasher and GFI couter outlet #1

Circuit 4 = Fridge outlet and GFI counter #2


Any other suggestions?

I guess I'm trying to stay with code, balance the loads, and not bombard the main and have it trip. Not possible since I can not upgrade. I still like the idea of another subpanel I mentioned in the other thread but don't know if it is viable.

An Electrician stopped in today as he was doing work for my neighbor and said it looked like I was doing the right thing on remediating the old problems but was vauge on the new layout as he said it should be find either way. He said I should keep the pushmatic panel and replace them, but that would be a hot swap.
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Old 08-24-2012, 08:32 PM   #5
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Configuration needed with safety and code in mind


The 20 amp small appliance circuit can only serve receptacles in th kitchen/dining and pantry areas. They cannot feed the DW and exhaust hood.

Please go back and read my last post for the correct circuitry.
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Old 08-24-2012, 09:05 PM   #6
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Configuration needed with safety and code in mind


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
The 20 amp small appliance circuit can only serve receptacles in th kitchen/dining and pantry areas. They cannot feed the DW and exhaust hood.

Please go back and read my last post for the correct circuitry..................... ......You need 2 20 amp countertop small appliance circuits. These can feed the refrigerator and the gas igniter.

Add the range hood or exhaust fan to a lighting circuit."
.

Ok, so taking what you saying into consideration does this work?

20-A Circuit 1 = Bathroom outlet 20-A

20-A Circuit 2 = Fridge outlet and GFI Counter #1 (downstream from fridge)

?-A Circuit 3 = Dishwasher alone How many amps???______

20-A Circuit 4 = Gas Oven, & GFI counter outlets 2&3 (future microwave.

15-A Aluminum Circuit (with a lot of stuff already on it) + Exhaust & Hood Fans.

The 1st Exhaust fan is an old wall motor fan, does that draw a lot of continuous amps? Are newer ones more efficient, id think not a motor is a motor.

Last edited by Jzone99; 08-24-2012 at 09:18 PM.
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Old 08-24-2012, 09:07 PM   #7
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Configuration needed with safety and code in mind


I'm trying, so please be patient. I don't mind learning. This is a DIY site not a DIBY site. Do it by yourself. Thanks for the replies so far. I am listening to the advice.

Last edited by Jzone99; 08-24-2012 at 09:20 PM.
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Old 08-24-2012, 09:13 PM   #8
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Configuration needed with safety and code in mind


Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post
Are you crazy, do you want to start an argument? Do a search on this topic regarding Kitchen circuits, and every one of them becomes a huge bicker fest back and forth, how to do it better.

As for doing it correctly, first start by either making a phone call to your local city permit office, or search their website. Then suggest getting together with a local Sparky and having them do a walk through with what you have now, sit down over a beer or two with you, and plan out the changes.

As for how I would do it, figure what you have going into the space, that is not there already, and then go from there. If you only have two counters splitting the Kitchen sink, you can feed one 20 amp circuit per counter, and also can feed the baseboard outlets with those two outlets. Now of course you can in some places get away with putting the spark/clock for a gas stove on one of the 20 amp circuits, same as the stove.

Disposall & Dish washer, some places you can put both on a 20 amp circuit, but now you have to keep them on separate circuits.

Again, put it down on paper, make some phone calls, find a Sparky to invite over for a beer or two, and go through the plans. As long as you are going from Aluminum to Copper, you will be in good shape. The bad part gets going, is when people try to "fix" an aluminum circuit, without doing it right.
Just curious Greg. You and I usually disagree on D/W and GD on the same circuit. I don't have a problem as long as the circuit is sized for it. Why the change of heart? Please explain.

Thanks
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Old 08-24-2012, 09:27 PM   #9
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Configuration needed with safety and code in mind


Quote:
Originally Posted by electures View Post
Just curious Greg. You and I usually disagree on D/W and GD on the same circuit. I don't have a problem as long as the circuit is sized for it. Why the change of heart? Please explain.

Thanks
Now I am laughing......This is only a 900 Sqft Condo. My wife and I will be going out and looking at houses tomorrow, I won't last on this site. My Wife's Uncle is a certified electrician but lives in another state.

I will try to Skype with him tomorrow so I can show him stuff on the Camera and he can consult me.

Last edited by Jzone99; 08-24-2012 at 09:30 PM.
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Old 08-24-2012, 09:27 PM   #10
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Configuration needed with safety and code in mind


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Originally Posted by electures View Post
Just curious Greg. You and I usually disagree on D/W and GD on the same circuit. I don't have a problem as long as the circuit is sized for it. Why the change of heart? Please explain.

Thanks
Yea, I don't have one. Are they common?

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