Go Back   DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum > Home Improvement > Electrical

CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY...IT'S FREE!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 02-06-2011, 09:29 PM   #16
nap
You talking to me?
 
nap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: sw mi
Posts: 5,407
Share |
Default

Conduit vs Direct Wire....why


Quote:
Originally Posted by jlmran View Post
Cost? Ease of use? Conductors are already placed in the sheath, versus pulling conductors through a pipe? NM can be used with plastic boxes? NM doesn't have to look pretty because its always hidden? With NM you don't have to make bends at various degrees? An entire cable can be cut with a pair of dikes, vs. cutting conduit which requires a saw or tubing cutter? Conduit has to be measured precisely where NM only has to be close.

All I was saying was that 'superior' was loosely defined.
cost is not a basis for it being superior and IMO, neither is ease of installation. Neither of them make NM superior to conduit. It simply makes it less expensive and simpler to install.

Can you list anything that would allow NM to be considered to be a superior system.

Quote:
Cost?
if we used that for a determination of superiority, A Tato Nano would be the best car in the world.

Quote:
Ease of use?
easier is easier, not better

Quote:
Conductors are already placed in the sheath, versus pulling conductors through a pipe?
well duh!! (not being vicious with that)

Quote:
NM can be used with plastic boxes?
I don't like plastic boxes

Quote:
NM doesn't have to look pretty because its always hidden?
NM is hidden no more or less than a conduit installation would be and btw; I have seen some really ugly conduit installs both hidden and exposed.

Quote:
With NM you don't have to make bends at various degrees?
missing the point there

Quote:
An entire cable can be cut with a pair of dikes, vs. cutting conduit which requires a saw or tubing cutter?
not an issue. With NM you have to strip the outer sheath. Neither is really anything to be concerned with.

Quote:
Conduit has to be measured precisely where NM only has to be close.
So? learn to do a quality install.

benefits of conduit:

I can change a circuit ampacity as needed by pulling out the old wire and feeding in new.

I can add circuits to any give area of the house by simply stuffing more wire in the conduit.

Mice do not eat conduit.

A lot less chance of the insulation on the wire being damaged when pulling it in and if it is damaged with a conduit system and not discovered until after the wall is closed up, so what. I just replace the wire.

If I overheat a wire, there is less chance of it causing a fire (nearly nil for a conduit system compared to a much greater possibility with NM)

If I do melt a wire, I just pull it out and replace it.

while not impossible to run a screw through conduit (emt), it is a lot more difficult than running one through NM


so, so far, the only real benefit you have is cost. As I said, if we made other decisions based solely on cost, we wouldn't be very happy with many of them. In fact, I can't think of much of anything that I would chose only because of cost.

nap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2011, 09:42 PM   #17
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 978
Default

Conduit vs Direct Wire....why


Whoa there...I'm not campaigning for the exclusive use of NM. Both arguments are easily defendable. Again, I'm saying that 'superior' is in the eye of the beholder.

If the law allows NM then to many folks it is a superior system. Otherwise, NM wouldn't be so popular.
jlmran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2011, 09:49 PM   #18
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 978
Default

Conduit vs Direct Wire....why


Quote:
Originally Posted by nap View Post
Mice do not eat conduit.
This is at the top of the list for conduit vs. NM!!
jlmran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2011, 10:10 PM   #19
nap
You talking to me?
 
nap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: sw mi
Posts: 5,407
Default

Conduit vs Direct Wire....why


Quote:
Originally Posted by jlmran View Post
This is at the top of the list for conduit vs. NM!!
Ok, so now we have established there is a major benefit for conduit in some situations.

Now, have you ever visited Chicago?

just a guess but one thing most big cities have is rodents. Maybe that was their justification. I honestly don't know but as I said before, somewhere along the line, somebody justified it to the powers that be. Since then, apparently the justification has been deemed necessary to continue.


Quote:
If the law allows NM then to many folks it is a superior system. Otherwise, NM wouldn't be so popular.
it comes down to dollars. People will typically install the least expensive method available. When bidding jobs, if you don't, you typically don't get the job. When a guy goes out and prices his DIY project, he generally has price as a major consideration.


In my area, the owner of one of the largest electrical contractors in my area built a new house. He has a lot of money. He used conduit throughout the house. I don't live in an area that requires conduit.

In his case, when money wasn't an object, he chose conduit.

In a spec house, cost is a concern so NM gets used.
nap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2011, 10:24 PM   #20
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 978
Default

Conduit vs Direct Wire....why


I have visited Chicago. Nice place. But I live in rural Oklahoma and I bet our rodents can keep up with any Chicago rat!

Oklahoma has a lot of house fires which are often attributed to faulty wiring. I'm certain the proper use of pipe could reduce this incidence. Rural OK has very few (if any) building codes which are enforced.
jlmran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2011, 11:22 PM   #21
nap
You talking to me?
 
nap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: sw mi
Posts: 5,407
Default

Conduit vs Direct Wire....why


Quote:
jlmran;586153]I have visited Chicago. Nice place.
You obviously haven't seen some of the parts of Chicago I have seen Just kidding. There is good and bad. I remember visiting one time when cutting across town driving through a really bad part of town. A lot of drunks laying about the curbs and doorways. I really try to avoid those parts of town.

Quote:
But I live in rural Oklahoma and I bet our rodents can keep up with any Chicago rat!
I don't know about that. I was driving through Chitown one time and I thought I saw a really ugly hooker on the street corner wearing a ratty old fur coat. As I went by, I realized it was just a big rat hanging out waiting for the bus.

Quote:
Oklahoma has a lot of house fires which are often attributed to faulty wiring. I'm certain the proper use of pipe could reduce this incidence.
It might but in reality, if NM is installed properly and not abused, it is perfectly safe.

Quote:
Rural OK has very few (if any) building codes which are enforced.
while I do not care for government intrusion in my life, the problem with a lack of building code enforcement usually means there are a lot of unsafe buildings. Some simply due to ignorance of what it takes to make them safe; some due to those that just don't care.

I live about 100 miles from Chicago. That is the place to go for museums and such around me. If I was a sports fan it would be heaven. There are the Blackhawks, the Bulls, the Bears, the White Sox and the Cubs. Huge sports town.

and of course, the home of Bozo the Clown.
nap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2011, 11:51 PM   #22
Electrical Contractor
 
kbsparky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Delmarva
Posts: 3,361
Default

Conduit vs Direct Wire....why


Quote:
Originally Posted by nap View Post
...Can you list anything that would allow NM to be considered to be a superior system....
I can. Near here is a place called Ocean City. In Ocean City, salt air corrosion is a BIG factor, and buildings that were built and wired with steel conduit systems are experiencing BIG problems with rusting out.

NM cable, OTOH, has not had significant problems in this area.
__________________
-KB

Life is uncertain -- eat dessert first!!
kbsparky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2011, 11:57 PM   #23
nap
You talking to me?
 
nap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: sw mi
Posts: 5,407
Default

Conduit vs Direct Wire....why


Quote:
Originally Posted by kbsparky View Post
I can. Near here is a place called Ocean City. In Ocean City, salt air corrosion is a BIG factor, and buildings that were built and wired with steel conduit systems are experiencing BIG problems with rusting out.

NM cable, OTOH, has not had significant problems in this area.
I'll give you that one. In those cases, I suggest epoxy coated steel or stainless steel.

or just plain old PVC.
nap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2011, 05:50 AM   #24
A "Handy Husband"
 
rjniles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: South Carolina Low Country
Posts: 3,933
Default

Conduit vs Direct Wire....why


My point is that different situations require different solutions. Certainly economics play a factor. When certain localities refuse to accept new technological and/or economic products, it it usually because someone has an vested interest in doing it the old way.
__________________
Location:
Coastal South Carolina
rjniles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2011, 08:25 AM   #25
Jack of all - master none
 
hyunelan2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: SW Suburbs of Chicago
Posts: 1,195
Default

Conduit vs Direct Wire....why


Putting corruption and union influence possibilities aside...

If you had your city once burn completely to the ground, wouldn't you want to limit fire possibility in the future? The difference from a lot of Chicago and places like rural Oklahoma, is the fire will quickly spread beyond the structure in which it started. Modern building codes, firefighting methods, etc. probably limit this - but the old adage of protecting wires in conduit still remains.

Then, the collar-counties just keep with "well, that's what they do in the city, so we'll do that too."
hyunelan2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2011, 11:07 AM   #26
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 41
Default

Conduit vs Direct Wire....why


Quote:
Originally Posted by nap View Post
I do a lot of things above and beyond code requirements because I believe the code doesn't go far enough. Without knowing why Chicago requires conduit, it is very difficult to argue their reasoning is flawed.

Heck, the code doesn't even require upsizing conductors for voltage drop but every electrician I know does it. So, are we wrong for upsizing conductors?

Unless somebody can find when conduit was first required (in Chicago code) and some discussion as to why, I don't think an answer will ever be realized here.
ASHRAE 90.1, the energy code that most states follow for commercial installations, does require the upsizing of conductors for voltage drop. Although I do realize that this thread is more focused on residential.

DetroitEE is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
wire in conduit silver 11 Electrical 8 04-11-2010 08:20 PM
Wiring a Spa and THHN question. skleinsmith Electrical 29 04-02-2010 11:41 AM
When wire needs to be outdoor / direct burial rated jamiedolan Electrical 23 02-25-2009 11:46 AM
Direct burial vs. conduit? vsheetz Electrical 15 01-05-2009 06:39 PM
Installing Fluorescents in Garage rzrbkpk Electrical 26 04-08-2008 09:00 PM




Top of Page | View New Posts

Copyright © 2003-2014 Escalate Media. All Rights Reserved.