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Old 08-22-2007, 03:15 PM   #1
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complicating-updating new box for client, electrician messed it up-pics included


I am a contractor changing out a box for a client. He had a electrican who on the side came and changed out his box and left him with this(see pics, I broke it open so you can see ALL views, from the shoddy work to where the wire enters from the outside) and $800.00 broker.For those of you who suggest I hire a electrician unless your goign to donate money for the cause this is impossible due to lack of finances for the client. I am doing this because I have done alot of work for him in past, and the current condition that the stupid electrician left for him I wouldnt' trust another electrician to come in cause I could do better work than this clown can. Even though i'm not a electrician I do have experience with similar such as 220v installs, subpanels, wiring new homes and such. I built additions and installed jacuzzi tubs and rewired fans and all sorts of nice electrical projects. However, I know just little beyond common knowledge along lines of dealing with meters and service cable.
first off the guy bought this box installed half a** and left with the clients money never to return. Its a 200amp box i belive, I didn't pay attention I could be wrong, the client told me thats what he was supposed to be installing a 200amp anyway, So really Im just going by that guess. So heres my questions
1. what size service cable do I need for the entrance for a 200amp service, He doesnt' run nothing to heavy, has electric range,no dishwasher, no jacuzzis or even forced air ac. He rents the basement and upstairs and will be using 4 window ac units total, his furnace is over 17 years old. Just basic lights, he dont' even use a computer. However! he wants to sell it soon, and who knows what the future holds for the new would be owners electrical needs. Maybe a 100amp or 150 would suffice.
2. how do I disconnect the power so I can run the wire? do I remove the meter head(part thats enclosed in glass)? Its not locked or tagged as you can see iin the pictures, After I remove it its safe correct? They wont upgrade his meter UNTIL the box is upgraded. Then if I remove the power to connect the new wire obviously I wont' have power to the house, which I guess I'll have to call them to schedule my time to connect it to the box? Or do they connect it to the box as well? ir is just to the meter are they responsible for? Do I just run the wire through a new hole, leave it all disconnected until they show then while they are changing out the box, i remove the old wire and install the new ones? or perhaps remove the meter head to disconnect all electric to box, change everything out run wires as needed, get it all framed in and when finished reconnect the meter head, or before reconnecting the meter head do I just run the new service cable from my new installed box to the old box totally eliminating the old cable, then reconnect the head, and when they come out they will remove the newly installed cable and reconnect to the new meter?
3. the current meter is 100amp correct?, so this would be changed out if wanted to upgrade, If I leave it at 100a then what main breaker would I use? a 100amp breaker then go from there? I understand that the 100amps you use is only calculated at load(current use, as everything not on at once). Heard one similar answer on 100a service, to use a 90A breaker instead?? Heres another question, if you look on this new box why does this not have a main breaker? the wires run straight to the buss? NO breaker to flip in case of emergency? why? I want to eliminate ALL wires that are not necessary, so that grey box that is there is going bye bye,(If it cannot, please explain why), the junction box rewired, and all the wires properly in grommets and fasten down all wires.
4. Should I ground this to cold water pipe or should I run 2 rods in the ground for this? dont' see where they grounded this, How do I tell if its grounded?
5. I know basic loads, but not qualified to do a house load calculation what is the formula to figure this out? Or any directions to any websites would be useful, perhaps you know of one I have yet to visit. How about any sites on volt meter usage, I'd be interested in learning some of this stuff in my spare time. Any advice from the experienced that may be of use?
6. last simple question, I put electrical tape on all my connections, is this a sign of an amateur? I was told that it was unnecessary and was a sign of a do it yourselfer/amateur...he was nice about it(i think) but I keep wondering what this licensed electrician said was true, because the pictures you see if from a electrician and he taped teh connections(very badly I might add)


Just letting you know ALOT of these questions I ask I already have an answer for or already think I know the answer, but asking just to reassure myself. Just lettign you know as the only wrong answer or comment that anyone can post is to hire a qualified electrician After all if I do electrocute myself its more work for you guys in the future since I won't be around..LOL
sorry for any confusion, but I have to get to teh jobsite and Im in a hurry. so disregard any spelling or grammer issues. Looking forward to any and all comments and hopefully learn some new things. Thanks in advance to all who help me out, it is greatly appreciated, and any advice given would be given credit for, but I WILL NOT!! hold anyone responsible for any ADVICE given.
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Old 08-22-2007, 03:18 PM   #2
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complicating-updating new box for client, electrician messed it up-pics included


more pics of shoddy work
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Old 08-22-2007, 03:21 PM   #3
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complicating-updating new box for client, electrician messed it up-pics included


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Old 08-22-2007, 03:25 PM   #4
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complicating-updating new box for client, electrician messed it up-pics included


last page of pics,

Maybe i shold have compressed them more, Im not that great at knowing best size, with a 7.2 mp camera guess they were huge cause each pic was 2mb and reduced to aroudn 15kb each.. but wanted you to see the details. I have more pictures but figured this is start, if you need a picture of an angle let me know.
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Old 08-22-2007, 03:42 PM   #5
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complicating-updating new box for client, electrician messed it up-pics included


What a mess! I see two meters installed... is this a multifamily residence?

Who is going to pull the permits? Who's insurance will cover this?

Since you don't want to hear that a licensed electrician should be doing this, I'm not going to say anything more.
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Old 08-22-2007, 03:55 PM   #6
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complicating-updating new box for client, electrician messed it up-pics included


Homeowner is pulling permits, His insurance will cover anything done to the property. and yes its a multifamily being two meters. Yeh I doubt i'll get any serious answers as everybodys solution these days is hire it out. People can't even mow their own lawn anymore and just hire it out.
I'll figure it out regardless but some help would be appreciated by anyone willing to give me some serious advice.
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Old 08-22-2007, 04:04 PM   #7
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complicating-updating new box for client, electrician messed it up-pics included


Just from the questions you are asking...YOU should not being doing this work. And don't tell me how much you know, and installed al ot of fans.....all BS....
Pure and simple...this time get a licensed contractor, and pull permits. The owner has learned a good lesson. Make use of this lesson.

Stop the crying about lack of finances of whoever. If he would have had a legitimate licensed contractor do it initially....thos posting would not be here....that's NOT a legitimate response. Someone is going to get hurt in this process.
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Old 08-22-2007, 06:09 PM   #8
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complicating-updating new box for client, electrician messed it up-pics included


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Yeh I doubt i'll get any serious answers as everybodys solution these days is hire it out. People can't even mow their own lawn anymore and just hire it out.
You know, your attitude and opinions on this topic are total BS! Maybe your area has some jerk electricians but the solution is NOT to do it yourself when you have NO clue!!!


BTW- your little description of us sitting the in van drinking coffee is so f-ing arrogant it's not funny!!!
Why don't you go out and socialize with some REAL contractors with some REAL ethics.
Form the sound of it you and your area have some real winners. It scares me that you say you are getting more and more electrical work.
I hope you are not in NY.
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Old 08-22-2007, 06:24 PM   #9
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complicating-updating new box for client, electrician messed it up-pics included


Kraze,
You, and people like you, are one of the very reasons we have laws, regulations, codes, testing, and licensing of persons to do work OUTSIDE of the "work" environment. A journeyman electrician in a "plant" type environment does NOT mean licensed by the State to perform work outside of the "plant".

Plant work is much different. Numerous intense training programs, along with a rigorous checks, and inspections by qualified supervision/safety personnel are involved on work performed.

Please skip that "they can't afford a licensed contractor". That very
code(s) is/are there for those peoples' protection .... against people like YOU. Your logic is how people get hurt.

You have no idea at all what the term "LICENSED" really means. Yes, electricians are licensed, but to work for a LICENSED contractor, under the supervision of a STATE LICENSED MASTER ELECTRICIAN". This is done for the safety of the general public whether it be residential or commercial.

I seriously doubt these so called "electricians" were licensed by the State, or worked under the supervision of a Licensed Master Electrician, yet alone pulled permits, and had this work inspected by the local Inspection Authority. So that part of your statement is completely FALSE.

No Licensed Contractor is going to put his license in jeopardy for a few dollars on a residential service.

If you really believe you are qualified,... show proof of experience (licensed electrical contractor required for 8000 hours of on the job experience), and apply to take the journeyman's test.
That's just the very first step. Then get hired by a Licensed Electrical contractor, work under the supervision of a Licensed Master Electrician....not some yahoo down the block that has a pair of side cutters and a screwdriver.
Next, is to practice the electrical trade under the supervision of a Licensed Master Electrician for about 2 years, and apply to take your own Master Electrician's test.

J Garth
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Registered Professional Engineer
Licensed Master Electrician by the State.
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Old 08-22-2007, 07:41 PM   #10
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You are not a CONTRACTOR. You would be getting a permit if you were a licensed contractor (of any sort for that matter).
You guys find easy prey, and pounce on them ......
You are the ones that give legitimate contractors a bad name by calling yourselves' CONTRACTORS ..... right ....
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Old 08-22-2007, 07:49 PM   #11
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But with your guys advice to me, your not even throwing me a bone here! your not answering my questions, do you think im spending hours of my time to piss you guys off? frankly I have a problem that im trying to find a solution, and with the bs that im getting from every electrician on this site, it makes me want to do the job even more!
What BS? The fact that we are telling you not to do this job. We would give this advice to anyone in the same situation. Don't flatter yourself thinking this is some special situation. It is not.




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Originally Posted by Kraze View Post
but what is the client to do?
HIRE A REAL ELECTRICIAN!



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I KNOW i can do a better job than this guy.
That's NOT saying much.


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I think the problem is that Im not in your trade, adn therefore your not interested in giving me any advice. If I was a novice in this trade you WOULD have given me any information I would ask.
NOT at all true. This is a DIY board. We are here, on our OWN time, helping others with tasks they can accomplish themselves. If someone is in over their heads, we tell them so. On this site, and some others, trade has NOTHING to do with it.

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Perhaps Im wrong, but shoudlnt' you be blaming your fellow electrican not me.
No one is "blaming" you for anything. And the hack that did that job is NO electrician. Especially not one of my "fellow electricians". I am hired to clean up messes like that quite often.
I associate with a higher caliber of contractors. Ones with ethics.
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Old 08-22-2007, 08:49 PM   #12
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After reading this I think you will die if you attempt this on your own. The best advice for a service change is get a real electrician and the job should be complete within 3-4 hours under normal circumstances. I like to sleep well at night how about you?
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Old 08-22-2007, 10:55 PM   #13
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You are not a CONTRACTOR. You would be getting a permit if you were a licensed contractor (of any sort for that matter).
You guys find easy prey, and pounce on them ......
You are the ones that give legitimate contractors a bad name by calling yourselves' CONTRACTORS ..... right ....

Hey hey hey...I thought I said the client was pulling the permit earlier? Maybe it was on the other forum I was banned from??? If I didnt' my bad...But yes permit is good
Now I worked for bad contractors, I never took a dime from anyone that I didnt' finish work for. And I always go the extra mile to make them comfortable.
I have given the client the option of a licensed electrician...how much would you guys charge to fix this mess? I gave detailed pictures, now you tell me? give me a idea...and i'll tell you his quote he got
contractor? absolutly, licensed/insured....

and people like this electrician gives electrical contractors like YOU a bad name? is there a difference?

Last edited by Kraze; 08-22-2007 at 11:07 PM.
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Old 08-22-2007, 11:05 PM   #14
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After reading this I think you will die if you attempt this on your own. The best advice for a service change is get a real electrician and the job should be complete within 3-4 hours under normal circumstances. I like to sleep well at night how about you?

your right about sleeping at night, that woudl be a great thing..LOL. didn't think i would see a compliment that didn't diss my qualifications or question. I had only 1 guy give this type of advice on the other forum. And few hours ago I WAS pretty much decided to hire a pro.


Will a electrician change out all the wires on this, or keep the present wires? And they don't do drywall? will they frame it out and put it back to finish condition?
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Old 04-28-2011, 08:37 AM   #15
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I saw the pictures and it really bothers me about the wirings of the electricity. On that case, I can't even sleep bothering with that mess, well the best way we can do is call for a professional licensed electrician or electrical engineer to make things right. The mess with the electrical wirings might even cause fire or electricity failure to appliances. I hope you do the job well.

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