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Old 08-12-2012, 02:25 PM   #16
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Combining old wire to new


The NEC does not exist to make life difficult for electricians. It exists to protect the end user from dangerous situations. Existing non-grounded wire is allowed to remain until work is done on it. It is required to be brought up to code if work is done on it.

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Old 08-12-2012, 04:48 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cossack

Again, the code does NOT require the immediate removal of all old 2 wire non-grounded cable. Is that not true? If the non-grounded stuff was so terrible there would be a nationwide campaign to tear it all out. Therefore your alarm is clearly unwarranted. I am just "extending" what has already been there for years.

You and the other respondents to this thread are all capable, knowledgeable, intelligent men. The code was NOT given to the patron saint of electricians by God on some mountain. Use common sense.
No code doesn't require that it be removed. Code DOES require it to be removed of you add to the circuit. Anytime you perform any work beyond switching of devices you must bring the scope of work up to the current code.
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Old 08-12-2012, 07:30 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cossack View Post
I did not want to make this a debate, but MANY old houses have the old two wire non –grounded cable. One house I bought has had it since 1925 and it is still standing. Does code require that two wire non grounded cables be REMOVED? I don’t think so! In fact I know of some houses that still have knob and tube. I would not recommend that, but I do not think what I want to do is out of line.

Thank you Mister Z for being truly helpful. As I said, the main thing I wanted to know is if 14 can be combined with 12. My question was not really about the grounding aspects.
Just want to be clear. Im not agreeing to what you're proposing.
I only wanted to provide a possible alternative.
Changing the breaker to lower amps is fine. anything beyond that, i must agree with stickboy and "do as you wish".
Its not like were gonna stop you anyway
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Old 08-12-2012, 11:36 PM   #19
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Well guys I completed the job in 55 minutes using the 14-2 the prior owner was nice enough to leave in place. I already had a spare 15 amp switch so I saved on that too. The guy at Home Depot who is a retired electrician with 25 years in the business said that “technically” you are all right, but if it were his house he would do the same thing I did.

I did the job, and the code gods have not struck me with lightning. The lights work great and I am sure they will continue to do so for many more years. Thank you all for your inputs.
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Old 08-13-2012, 01:05 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cossack View Post
Well guys I completed the job in 55 minutes using the 14-2 the prior owner was nice enough to leave in place. I already had a spare 15 amp switch so I saved on that too. The guy at Home Depot who is a retired electrician with 25 years in the business said that “technically” you are all right, but if it were his house he would do the same thing I did.

I did the job, and the code gods have not struck me with lightning. The lights work great and I am sure they will continue to do so for many more years. Thank you all for your inputs.
There really aren't any code gods just electrical codes written to provide for a safe installation for a premise wiring system. Your installation is not code compliant and a far cry from the level of safety that a grounded wiring system provides. Therefore you, having done the work, will assume all liabilty. You may never have to pay any consequences but the possibility exists.
250.130 and article 406 has language that allows extending a branch circuit containing only a 2 wire method if it is existing ... but it will not allow what your doing. Adding 14 awg to 12 awg and down sizing the breaker is cheesy hack work...so sorry if you didn't hear what you wanted to hear on this forum.

(C) Nongrounding Receptacle Replacement or Branch
Circuit Extensions.
The equipment grounding conductor of a grounding-type receptacle or a branch-circuit extension
shall be permitted to be connected to any of the following:
(1) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode system
as described in 250.50
(2) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode conductor
(3) The equipment grounding terminal bar within the enclosure
where the branch circuit for the receptacle or
branch circuit originates
(4) For grounded systems, the grounded service conductor within the service equipment enclosure


(5) For ungrounded systems, the grounding terminal bar
within the service equipment enclosure






Last edited by Stubbie; 08-13-2012 at 08:59 AM.
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Old 08-13-2012, 12:31 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stubie View Post
Adding 14 awg to 12 awg and down sizing the breaker is cheesy hack work...so sorry if you didn't hear what you wanted to hear on this forum.



How is it a cheesy hack? The two wire ungrounded cables are still in millions of homes and IT WORKS FINE. I think you guys have been brainwashed by this slavish adherence to “code.” Yes, in cases where someone does something dangerous they should be called on it. However NO ONE contributing to this thread has listed any proof that what I did is dangerous.

Yes, I know that electricians must adhere to code, but I am the home owner.

My extension of the ungrounded cable is for two overhead lights. There is absolutely no harm here.

Last edited by Cossack; 08-13-2012 at 12:52 PM.
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Old 08-13-2012, 12:55 PM   #22
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Other than the fact you have nowhere for fault current to get away. Such as a lightning strike, which will likely blow every electronic appliance you have. Or option two where you could have a pinched wire in the can and the entire frame of the light will liven up. How's that for specific examples of it not being safe?


I will also point out that not just electricians have to adhere to code. The code is a standard that must be followed by everyone by law. Try telling the inspector "but its ok to do that, I'm not an electrician I'm the homeowner".
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Old 08-13-2012, 03:47 PM   #23
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Wow, cant believe people are still replying to this.
For all the time arguing he coulda ran a whole new circuit. Hahaha
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Old 08-13-2012, 05:09 PM   #24
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We get more than a few posters who come here to try to get someone to agree with them (and then get indignant when they are told the correct way to proceed).
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Old 08-13-2012, 05:39 PM   #25
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This has to be the worst thread ever... Should be a sticky for what NOT to look for here....
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Old 08-13-2012, 05:41 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cossack View Post
The guy at Home Depot who is a retired electrician with 25 years in the business said that “technically” you are all right, but if it were his house he would do the same thing I did. [/FONT]
Thank god that guy is retired...
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Old 08-13-2012, 05:42 PM   #27
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Combining old wire to new


Isn't one possibility to add a GFCI 15A breaker? That would alleviate all safety concerns about electrical shock.

Just curious....
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Old 08-13-2012, 05:43 PM   #28
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Isn't one possibility to add a GFCI 15A breaker? That would alleviate all safety concerns about electrical shock.

Just curious....
With the existing circuit, absolutely... BUT, you still cannot extend that circuit.
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Old 08-13-2012, 05:48 PM   #29
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Thanks Stickboy.
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Old 08-13-2012, 05:55 PM   #30
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Quote:
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Isn't one possibility to add a GFCI 15A breaker? That would alleviate all safety concerns about electrical shock.

Just curious....
In my world the word "all" makes me nervous.

GFCI are great safety measures that allow for life safety protection. They are not a subsitute for grounding. Also, a surge suppressor plugged into an ungrounded receptacle (gfci or not) is worthless.

A properly grounded appliance with a ground fault will either trip the breaker or at least push all fault current safely to ground.

An ungrounded appliance with a fault without a path to ground, if you touch it and become the path to ground, you will still receive a short shock before the gfci trips.

Also, GFCI devices can fail (yes, ground wires can come loose too)

The safety hierarchy from worst to best is

Ungrounded no GFCI
Ungrounded GFCI
Grounded no GFCI
Grounded GFCI

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