Now I have a 20 amp breaker at the circuit box that has older two wire, ie black and white no ground. This cable looks to be in good shape. This services several overhead lights in bedrooms. I need to tie into this to create overhead lights in the bathroom and hallway. Can I replace the 20 amp breaker with a 15 amp breaker, and then use 14-2 cable to connect the bathroom and hall lighting? I do not know if the present older cable is 12 or 14. I assume it is 12 since it has been tied into this 20 amp breaker before I bought the house.
First things first, you have to verify that the existing wiring method qualifies for a grounding conductor, because you can't extend a non grounding circuit....
I know that you are adhering to code by saying I cannot extend the non-grounding circuit. However, I am not an electrician and I just want to make this work as simple as possible. Can I just replace the 20 amp switch with a 15 amp and add the 14-2 so I can get this job done and all is safe? My main concern is combining the 14-2 with what I think is 12. I think I have read that this can be done safely. I will of course combine them in a box.
I know that you are adhering to code by saying I cannot extend the non-grounding circuit. However, I am not an electrician and I just want to make this work as simple as possible. Can I just replace the 20 amp switch with a 15 amp and add the 14-2 so I can get this job done and all is safe? My main concern is combining the 14-2 with what I think is 12. I think I have read that this can be done safely. I will of course combine them in a box.
Last I knew, proper grounding is a safety issue. Im sorry your concerns are not the same as mine. This is the exact type of mentality that i cannot stand.
I will explain further. I bought this house in foreclosure and the prior owner already ran 14-2 through the walls, ceiling, and attic. I know the 14-2 should not be paired with the current 20 amp switch at the circuit breaker. I just want to save time fishing in new lines. If I change the breaker to a 15 amp and connect the 14-2 the prior owner has already installed I am done with this in under an hour.
If you don't want to give non code advice just tell me if it is okay to combine 14-2 with 12 if the 12 is connected to a 15 amp switch.
Now I have a 20 amp breaker at the circuit box that has older two wire, ie black and white no ground. This cable looks to be in good shape. This services several overhead lights in bedrooms. I need to tie into this to create overhead lights in the bathroom and hallway. Can I replace the 20 amp breaker with a 15 amp breaker, and then use 14-2 cable to connect the bathroom and hall lighting? I do not know if the present older cable is 12 or 14. I assume it is 12 since it has been tied into this 20 amp breaker before I bought the house.
I will explain further. I bought this house in foreclosure and the prior owner already ran 14-2 through the walls, ceiling, and attic. I know the 14-2 should not be paired with the current 20 amp switch at the circuit breaker. I just want to save time fishing in new lines. If I change the breaker to a 15 amp and connect the 14-2 the prior owner has already installed I am done with this in under an hour.
If you don't want to give non code advice just tell me if it is okay to combine 14-2 with 12 if the 12 is connected to a 15 amp switch.
Cmon k_buz, we all know you have short-term memory
You can replace the 20amp with a 15.
If you have access to newer 14/2 wire PLUS Ground in the attic, maybe you can come off of that....maybe.
There is no "side-stepping" grounds. They are there for yours and others safety.
I did not want to make this a debate, but MANY old houses have the old two wire non –grounded cable. One house I bought has had it since 1925 and it is still standing. Does code require that two wire non grounded cables be REMOVED? I don’t think so! In fact I know of some houses that still have knob and tube. I would not recommend that, but I do not think what I want to do is out of line.
Thank you Mister Z for being truly helpful. As I said, the main thing I wanted to know is if 14 can be combined with 12. My question was not really about the grounding aspects.
I did not want to make this a debate, but MANY old houses have the old two wire non –grounded cable. One house I bought has had it since 1925 and it is still standing. Does code require that two wire non grounded cables be REMOVED? I don’t think so! In fact I know of some houses that still have knob and tube. I would not recommend that, but I do not think what I want to do is out of line.
But it is... you just dont understand what it is you are doing.
I did not want to make this a debate, but MANY old houses have the old two wire non –grounded cable. One house I bought has had it since 1925 and it is still standing. Does code require that two wire non grounded cables be REMOVED? I don’t think so! In fact I know of some houses that still have knob and tube. I would not recommend that, but I do not think what I want to do is out of line.
Thank you Mister Z for being truly helpful. As I said, the main thing I wanted to know is if 14 can be combined with 12. My question was not really about the grounding aspects.
You can not change the 20 amp breaker to a 15amp if the wire is 12gauge. And then add 14 gauge after other 12 wire. You will need to add 14 wire as a pig tail to the 12 wire in the panel. Or just continue to just use 12 wire if that's what you want to do. But try to find a grounded circuit if u want to keep adding
The NEC does not exist to make life difficult for electricians. It exists to protect the end user from dangerous situations. Existing non-grounded wire is allowed to remain until work is done on it. It is required to be brought up to code if work is done on it.
Again, the code does NOT require the immediate removal of all old 2 wire non-grounded cable. Is that not true? If the non-grounded stuff was so terrible there would be a nationwide campaign to tear it all out. Therefore your alarm is clearly unwarranted. I am just "extending" what has already been there for years.
You and the other respondents to this thread are all capable, knowledgeable, intelligent men. The code was NOT given to the patron saint of electricians by God on some mountain. Use common sense.
No code doesn't require that it be removed. Code DOES require it to be removed of you add to the circuit. Anytime you perform any work beyond switching of devices you must bring the scope of work up to the current code.
Well guys I completed the job in 55 minutes using the 14-2 the prior owner was nice enough to leave in place. I already had a spare 15 amp switch so I saved on that too. The guy at Home Depot who is a retired electrician with 25 years in the business said that “technically” you are all right, but if it were his house he would do the same thing I did.
I did the job, and the code gods have not struck me with lightning. The lights work great and I am sure they will continue to do so for many more years. Thank you all for your inputs.
There really aren't any code gods just electrical codes written to provide for a safe installation for a premise wiring system. Your installation is not code compliant and a far cry from the level of safety that a grounded wiring system provides. Therefore you, having done the work, will assume all liabilty. You may never have to pay any consequences but the possibility exists.
250.130 and article 406 has language that allows extending a branch circuit containing only a 2 wire method if it is existing ... but it will not allowwhat your doing. Adding 14 awg to 12 awg and down sizing the breaker is cheesy hack work...so sorry if you didn't hear what you wanted to hear on this forum.
(C) Nongrounding Receptacle Replacement or Branch
Circuit Extensions.
The equipment grounding conductor of a grounding-type receptacle or a branch-circuit extension shall be permitted to be connected to any of the following: (1) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode system as described in 250.50 (2) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode conductor (3) The equipment grounding terminal bar within the enclosure where the branch circuit for the receptacle or branch circuit originates (4) For grounded systems, the grounded service conductor within the service equipment enclosure
(5) For ungrounded systems, the grounding terminal bar
Other than the fact you have nowhere for fault current to get away. Such as a lightning strike, which will likely blow every electronic appliance you have. Or option two where you could have a pinched wire in the can and the entire frame of the light will liven up. How's that for specific examples of it not being safe?
I will also point out that not just electricians have to adhere to code. The code is a standard that must be followed by everyone by law. Try telling the inspector "but its ok to do that, I'm not an electrician I'm the homeowner".
Other than the fact you have nowhere for fault current to get away. Such as a lightning strike, which will likely blow every electronic appliance you have. Or option two where you could have a pinched wire in the can and the entire frame of the light will liven up. How's that for specific examples of it not being safe?".
But the house ALREADY had all the lights in the bedrooms using this two wire ungrounded system. How is adding merely two more lights going to make a significant difference? Again, if ungrounded cables are SO dangerous then why don’t you advise your customers to IMMEDIATELY pay you big bucks to replace all their old stuff with nice new grounded romex? I doubt you will have any takers.:no:
We get more than a few posters who come here to try to get someone to agree with them (and then get indignant when they are told the correct way to proceed).
I never asked “what does the code say about…..” This is a DIY forum. All that is necessary would have been for you or any of the other electricians to say “what you want to do is not code, but yes you can combine 12 gauge cable with 14.” That is all I asked, and it is all that I needed.
I cant stress this enough, GFCI protection is only a secondary safety device, it will never trump a properly installed EGC... (equipment grounding conductor) It is required in some areas of the NEC due to the known fact that in these areas, the EGC is most susceptible to being compromised...
A perfect example would be an outside receptacle, the odds of someone using an appliance or an extension cord with a broken ground pin is pretty reasonable.
Because, its very hard to get someone to remove something that has been previously installed, but its really easy to require that new work is done to today's code.
What you have done isn't the end of the world, but when someone comes here to ask professionals questions, gets advice, and says screw you, I'm going to do it anyway, its a slap in the face.
What you have done isn't the end of the world, but when someone comes here to ask professionals questions, gets advice, and says screw you, I'm going to do it anyway, its a slap in the face.
Reread my posts. I never said anything close to “screw you”. You have helped me in the past, so I would never do that. My main point was can 14 and 12 be joined, NOT is continuing ungrounded wire against code. As you said, what I did is NOT “the end of the world”, and I bet there are many electricians who have done the same.
Cossack, the NEC is clear that ungrounded circuits are not to be extended. It does not matter that places had or have 2 wire systems still in use. The rules changed and need to be followed. New installations need to follow the edition of the code that has been adopted, not a past version.
My parents safely drove cars without airbags, that doesn't mean that they can buy a new car without them.
No, please recall I did NOT ask for the code regulations on extending ungrounded cables. It was you two who insisted on bringing it up.
I don’t claim to know as much about electrical as an electrician, but with all of you combined knowledge NONE of you have proven that what I did is dangerous. I merely added two lights to an existing situation and I saved myself a lot of time and money in the process.
I am not an electrician but i only give code compliant advice here too.
my house when i bought it had all kinds of extensions of ungrounded work, open splices and electric tape all over. my first two years of ownership i added a receptacle to an ungrounded circuit for a computer (no clamps, no wire nuts). i also swapped all the 2 prong ungrounded receptacles for 3 prong with no gfci protection.
everything worked fine and never had a problem.
then i got religion in 2010, learned the proper way to do things and rewired everything to code. when i tore out the existing and my own hack work i couldnt believe i was willing to put my family and house at risk with that sh*t.
i admire every electician on this forum and their adherence to code is a plus.
I'm not defending this guy but everyone throws around the "safety" word. All professions do it.
What's the old saying, "You have a better chance of getting struck by lightening then snake bit." But we still drive to work in storms. I drive 100 miles round trip to work every day. That increases my chances to be in a fatal car wreck. But I still drive it.
That's the issue. What is safe? What are the mathamatical odds of a fire with what this guy did? If you guys want to say "It's code to upgrade" then I understand it but when someone says do it because it is "safer" I call BS.
There are hundreds of billions of times a day people "touch" a light switch or receptacle that are 2 wire, K&T no gfci. Do people die and get hurt, yes. But I am guessing it is a very low percentage versus car accidents, falls in the shower or catching a case of the clap.
There is wonderful info here but just as we non-experts get snarky you guys are not innocent. I've seen posts where an "expert" made fun of a poster for referring to a "plug-in" when everyone in the world knew what was being talked about. There are no innocents here.
The connections you made are not tight, one wire comes loose touches metal on the light fixture, now that light fixture is live. If there was a ground, the breaker would have tripped.
The connections you made are not tight, one wire comes loose touches metal on the light fixture, now that light fixture is live. If there was a ground, the breaker would have tripped.
Guys you do not have to be an electrician to make tight connections. I assure you my connections are fine. I have rewired another house I own, and it has been fine for 12 years now. Yes grounded cable is OPTIMAL, but it is NOT necessary. If that were true EVERY house from the 60s back would be burning down. You guys are slaves to the code because it makes you more money. I get that. But as I said THIS is a DIY forum.
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