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-   -   Code question on extending existing 120v circuit (http://www.diychatroom.com/f18/code-question-extending-existing-120v-circuit-57087/)

radiercks 11-12-2009 11:58 PM

Code question on extending existing 120v circuit
 
I'm adding a new outlet box, about 6 feet from an existing outlet.
There is no ground in the existing box. 50 year old home.
Does anyone know what the national codes say about adding a new outlet to an old/existing circuit, when the old circuit doesn't have a ground available?
I have run romex w/ground between the boxes.
Do I install a 2 prong duplex outlet so no one thinks there is a ground available?

Thanks for any clues.

SULTINI 11-13-2009 07:32 AM

Yes
 
Install the new outlet with 2 prong.

If your looking for protection you can install a GFI in the outlet your tapping into and it would protect both outlets.
If you do it this way read the complete instructions that come with the GFI , it explains the wiring and how to use it with more than one outlet.

300zx 11-13-2009 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SULTINI (Post 352462)
Install the new outlet with 2 prong.

If your looking for protection you can install a GFI in the outlet your tapping into and it would protect both outlets.
If you do it this way read the complete instructions that come with the GFI , it explains the wiring and how to use it with more than one outlet.

Good way to get around a non grounded 2 prong problem.Good advice.

nap 11-13-2009 08:14 AM

So, do you guys want to support your contention that the code allows you to extend a circuit that does not include an equipment grounding conductor? I cannot seem to find anything that allows such work.



then, y'all need to look at 406.3(D) and see what it says about GFCI's in this situation.

nevermind.


you cannot (legally) extend a circuit without an equipment grounding conductor (EGC). Any newly installed receptacle must be a legal installation and a legal installation, per code, includes an EGC.

when you do use a GFCI as a replacement for a 2 wire recep (no EGC in system), you do not connect an EGC from that recep to any receps that may be fed through that GFCI. You also have to apply those little stickers at subsequent receps that say "no equipment ground" and "GFCI protected"

Since you cannot extend an circuit without an EGC, the new recep will need to be a 3 prong recep because it should have an EGC. You can only replace existing 2 prong receps with 2 prong receps. You cannot install them in new installations.

Scuba_Dave 11-13-2009 08:19 AM

Yeah, I agree with Nap
You need to install a 3 prong & feed it off the load side of a GFCI at the old location

There are very few instances when you can use old wiring/methods - like a historic house

Are you sure you don't have a ground?
My house has metal boxes for the old wiring, over 50 years old
The copper ground was wrapped around the wire & is a under the clamp as the ground

300zx 11-13-2009 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nap (Post 352472)
So, do you guys want to support your contention that the code allows you to extend a circuit that does not include an equipment grounding conductor? I cannot seem to find anything that allows such work.



then, y'all need to look at 406.3(D) and see what it says about GFCI's in this situation.

nevermind.


you cannot (legally) extend a circuit without an equipment grounding conductor (EGC). Any newly installed receptacle must be a legal installation and a legal installation, per code, includes an EGC.

when you do use a GFCI as a replacement for a 2 wire recep (no EGC in system), you do not connect an EGC from that recep to any receps that may be fed through that GFCI. You also have to apply those little stickers at subsequent receps that say "no equipment ground" and "GFCI protected"

Since you cannot extend an circuit without an EGC, the new recep will need to be a 3 prong recep because it should have an EGC. You can only replace existing 2 prong receps with 2 prong receps. You cannot install them in new installations.

I didn't say anything about being code allowed it's 6' away yes i agree code does not let you add any new 2 prong outlets unless you are changing out the rec .But 6' i would in my house install a GFCI and lable no ground but thats my house

nap 11-13-2009 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 300zx (Post 352478)
I didn't say anything about being code allowed it's 6' away yes i agree code does not let you add any new 2 prong outlets unless you are changing out the rec .But 6' i would in my house install a GFCI and lable no ground but thats my house


the guy asked about code compliance so I would think you would have considered that fact when responding.

from the original post:

Quote:

Does anyone know what the national codes say about adding a new outlet to an old/existing circuit, when the old circuit doesn't have a ground available?

Dave, he can't do what you suggested either. He needs to install a proper EGC to the recep or not install it, at least to conform to code.

300zx 11-13-2009 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nap (Post 352485)
the guy asked about code compliance so I would think you would have considered that fact when responding.

from the original post:




Dave, he can't do what you suggested either. He needs to install a proper EGC to the recep or not install it, at least to conform to code.

Ok nap you Win :)

SULTINI 11-13-2009 09:02 AM

Thanks 300
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 300zx (Post 352486)
Ok nap you Win :)

I always try to use common sense, most people 99% do the job they posted anyway so why not install a receptacle instead of using a extension cord.

I agree nap wins.

FYI: EVERYBODY DIY

Scuba_Dave 11-13-2009 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nap (Post 352472)
when you do use a GFCI as a replacement for a 2 wire recep (no EGC in system), you do not connect an EGC from that recep to any receps that may be fed through that GFCI. You also have to apply those little stickers at subsequent receps that say "no equipment ground" and "GFCI protected"

Since you cannot extend an circuit without an EGC, the new recep will need to be a 3 prong recep because it should have an EGC. You can only replace existing 2 prong receps with 2 prong receps. You cannot install them in new installations.

OK, now you have confused me....so what are you saying ? :laughing:
He can or can't install a GFCI & add the outlet ?
I thought you were saying install a GFCI (to replace old outlet) & a 3-prong outlet in the new location
Which is what I was saying ?

nap 11-13-2009 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scuba_Dave (Post 352493)
OK, now you have confused me....so what are you saying ? :laughing:
He can or can't install a GFCI & add the outlet ?
I thought you were saying install a GFCI (to replace old outlet) & a 3-prong outlet in the new location
Which is what I was saying ?

he cannot extend the circuit, at all, regardless of GFCI unless he also runs a proper EGC to the new recep.

A GFCI can be used to replace a 2 conductor circuit fed recep to afford some personal preotection. IF you install a GFCI so that it feeds other (already existing) 2 prong receps, you cannot carry an EGC to the other receps (which there is not one anyway) and any receps protected by the GFCI (which is going to be a 3 prong recep) must have the little stickers that say "GFCI protected" and "no equipment ground" on their trim plates.

J. V. 11-13-2009 12:14 PM

http://www.diychatroom.com/f18/metho...nd-wire-55720/

nap 11-13-2009 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 300zx (Post 352486)
Ok nap you Win :)

I am not trying to "win". I am trying to provide:
1. the advice the OP asked for
2. advice that complies with the electrical code

Scuba_Dave 11-13-2009 12:35 PM

OK, Thanks for the clarification
Now I understand

One reason I like sites like this & having access to the code book is to narrow down & verify what is code & what is not

radiercks 11-14-2009 01:38 AM

I didn't get the answer I was hoping for .... but ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by nap (Post 352472)
So, do you guys want to support your contention that the code allows you to extend a circuit that does not include an equipment grounding conductor? I cannot seem to find anything that allows such work.



then, y'all need to look at 406.3(D) and see what it says about GFCI's in this situation.

nevermind.


you cannot (legally) extend a circuit without an equipment grounding conductor (EGC). Any newly installed receptacle must be a legal installation and a legal installation, per code, includes an EGC.

when you do use a GFCI as a replacement for a 2 wire recep (no EGC in system), you do not connect an EGC from that recep to any receps that may be fed through that GFCI. You also have to apply those little stickers at subsequent receps that say "no equipment ground" and "GFCI protected"

Since you cannot extend an circuit without an EGC, the new recep will need to be a 3 prong recep because it should have an EGC. You can only replace existing 2 prong receps with 2 prong receps. You cannot install them in new installations.

Thanks to everyone for responding to my question.
I believe NAP is correct. I stumbled upon a similar answer after posting my question.
This will make my job a whole lot harder since I'll need to fish some new wires to the old (existing) outlet so have I have a real ground to extend to the new box. Darn!!
Just to answer a few other people ... the old (existing) box just has a 2-wire, fabric covered cable (no ground) going to it. Other places in the house do use bx. Not this box. Who knows what idiot wired this place originally. I pulled an electrical permit to do the work so I'm sure the inspector would enjoy finding a homeowner that screwed-up on a detail like this.
Everyone was very helpfull. If anyone ever needs some advice on industrial equipment wiring, let me know. That's what I'm more familiar with.


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