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Old 02-02-2014, 03:55 PM   #1
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Change rotation on dual speed 115v motor


Got sent here from electriciantalk.com. This is my first post here and I'm hoping someone can help me out...
I came across an add on CL for 2 pool pumps. Went and looked at them and they both worked pretty good and I got them for $20 each. All I wanted was the motors from them because I can always use the motors for some other purpose. I have a cheap HF drill press so first idea was to swap out the 1/3 hp motor it came with for the smaller of the two that has 1-1/8hp . I took it all apart, bolted the motor on and wired it all in only to find out it spins in the wrong direction.
I've spent the last day looking over wiring diagrams and reading post after post on different forums but none of them seem to cover a dual speed setup like this.
So my question is, what wires do I need to swap to reverse the direction of this motor? Its a Franklin Electric motor 115v, dual speed, single phase. I tried to take it into the local motor shop but they are closed until monday out on a "service call". So I came home and took the motor apart because I'm impatient with this type of thing. It actually came apart pretty easily and it doesn't seem to be in bad shape at all for a motor of unknown age. Both the bearings are good and the wires are still flexible and no corrosion.
Thought about just flipping the motor upside down and held it up there to see how it could be done but, I honestly thought it looked real hokey and didn't like it. Plus it would make it real top heavy.
It doesn't say anywhere on the tags that it is reversible and it has no open leads on the inside. Also without any labels on the wires, I do not know which ones are 5 & 8 to try that which I have read on many different forums. Thats why I'm trying to find someone on here that can look at the pics and tell me what wires to swap. Only markings that I can find are where the power cord connections go and they are "line 1" "High line" "low line".
Spent about a 1/2 hour looking at the franklin electric website yesterday with little results and searching the model # on the site only gets me this:
"Your search - 4105030400 - did not match any documents.
No pages were found containing "4105030400"
I have found other Franklin diagrams but non match my motor exactly as far as wire color and setup.
Here is some pics







And no, I'm not buying all new LH bits...

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Old 02-02-2014, 04:24 PM   #2
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Change rotation on dual speed 115v motor


I suspect your SOL.

Single phase motors run in one direction only unless it's wired for fwd/rev operation. The name plate will usually show it.

And, no, swapping the hot and neut will not change the direction.

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Old 02-02-2014, 05:59 PM   #3
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Change rotation on dual speed 115v motor


Try swapping the blue wire with the white (or gray, it's hard to tell) that comes from the start capacitor.

Those two look a lot like the start winding.
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Old 02-02-2014, 08:35 PM   #4
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Change rotation on dual speed 115v motor


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Old 02-02-2014, 08:36 PM   #5
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Change rotation on dual speed 115v motor


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Try swapping the blue wire with the white (or gray, it's hard to tell) that comes from the start capacitor.

Those two look a lot like the start winding.
Agree. Blue and white looks like start winding. Swapping should reverse direction.
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Old 02-02-2014, 10:37 PM   #6
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Change rotation on dual speed 115v motor


So do this...?
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Old 02-02-2014, 11:12 PM   #7
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Change rotation on dual speed 115v motor


Yep.

That will change the phase relationship between the start and run windings, and it'll turn the opposite direction.

The run windings on a single phase motor are bi-directional; they don't care which way the rotor turns. The sole purpose of the start winding is to provide a phase shift in one direction or the other. Without the start winding, the rotor doesn't know which way to begin turning.

So if you change the location of the ends of the start winding relative to the run winding, the rotor will turn in the opposite direction. And since the white (or gray....) and blue are the ends of the start winding, swapping them will make it turn the other direction.

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Old 02-03-2014, 12:07 AM   #8
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Change rotation on dual speed 115v motor


That was a no go. I switched the blue and gray wires and all it did was hum, LOUD.
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Old 02-03-2014, 07:32 AM   #9
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Change rotation on dual speed 115v motor


Everything I see says the blue and grey are start windings in series with a capacitor. Swapping them should have reversed the direction.

Blue and grey appear to be equivalent to blue and red in these diagrams.



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Old 02-03-2014, 12:38 PM   #10
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Change rotation on dual speed 115v motor


OK I just realized this is a two speed motor. There should be three windings, high run, lo run and start. You need to identify the start winding and reverse the leads on it. The start winding will be the one connected to the centrifugal switch that disconnects when up to speed.
The start switch is the bits where the two orange wires are connected.
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Old 02-03-2014, 06:04 PM   #11
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Change rotation on dual speed 115v motor


As noted, there are 3 windings in this motor. We need to find the start winding, the other two are run windings.

It's obvious that blue is not one end of the start winding.

One way to know for sure is to take the capacitor cover off, and disconnect the lead that goes to the stator (winding). When you get the cover off, short the capacitor terminals together with a screwdriver. A capacitor can hold a charge for a long time, and getting blasted with it is not fun!

Connect one lead of a meter set to read continuity (Ω) to the white lead that goes to the stator. Make sure it doesn't touch anything.

Now, find the lead that reads nearly 0 Ohms. Be sure it's disconnected, or you'll read back through the other windings. Check all other wires that you can. They should read open.

I suspect it'll be the black one. Blue is very likely the common of the high and low run windings.

When you find the one that reads continuity to the white lead, swap that lead with the gray one that lands on the terminal board, and re-connect the white lead to the capacitor terminal.

Rob
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Old 02-03-2014, 06:23 PM   #12
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Change rotation on dual speed 115v motor


Does it matter that the black wire and yellow wire share a terminal? I've been pokin around with my meter but to be honest its been a few years since I've really used one.
Who'd a thunk this would be this difficult...?
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Old 02-03-2014, 08:00 PM   #13
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Change rotation on dual speed 115v motor


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Does it matter that the black wire and yellow wire share a terminal? I've been pokin around with my meter but to be honest its been a few years since I've really used one.
Who'd a thunk this would be this difficult...?
Yes it does matter that yellow and black share the same terminal.

Looking at both endbell pics, it appeared that yellow is on the end terminal (low speed) and black is on the center terminal (high speed).

Since they are on the same terminal, we don't want to change the polarity of the start winding, we want to change the high speed winding.

To do so, we would need to isolate each of the run windings. Since there are 5 wires coming from the stator, this would involve cutting open the string and paper where the orange and brown wires go into the stator, and un-splicing the ends of the high and low speed windings.

I really don't recommend doing this, mainly because it's nearly impossible to not nick the varnish from the winding wire. If it gets nicked, two or more of the coil turns will very likely short together. This will result in more current than the winding wire can handle, and it'll eventually burn up even with no load at the shaft.

A motor shop would be able to do this, because they can bake new varnish onto the windings, but it'll cost more than the motor is worth.

Rob

P.S. We did indeed change the polarity of the start winding by swapping the gray with blue, but since it is in parallel with the low speed winding, the net result was a fight between the high and low windings. High wanted to go one way, low the other. Hence the loud hum.......
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Old 02-03-2014, 08:26 PM   #14
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Change rotation on dual speed 115v motor


Crap... so in other words I'm SOL unless I take it to a motor shop?
If I only plan on using the low speed, is there any way to just cut out the high speed so I am only dealing with the low windings and start windings?

Last edited by Robert M; 02-03-2014 at 08:29 PM.
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Old 02-03-2014, 11:03 PM   #15
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Change rotation on dual speed 115v motor


Unfortunately, this motor uses the high speed winding and the start winding to start whether it runs high or low.

One of the centrifugal switches cuts out the start winding (the one with the blue wire), and the other energizes the high speed winding during starting, then switches to low speed if that terminal is energized.

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