Go Back   DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum > Home Improvement > Electrical

CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY...IT'S FREE!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 12-20-2008, 09:03 PM   #31
Electrician
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Connecticut, Litchfield
Posts: 2,015
Rewards Points: 0
Share |
Default

Can you use a 20A recepticle on 15A circuit?


Quote:
Originally Posted by KE2KB View Post
No matter how many times I want to read it, I'm not going to see that the code (either 2005 or 2008) states that a 20A single receptacle can be used on a 15A branch.

Tell me how you have arrived at this conclusion, please.

Simple. 210.21 (B)(1), states that a single receptacle on an individual branch circuit shall have an smpre rating not less than that of the branch circuit, so last I knew 20 amp rated receptacle is NOT less than a 15 amp branch circuit, and that is EXACTLY what this code section is telling us.

chris75 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2008, 09:07 PM   #32
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: New Jersey, USA
Posts: 1,202
Rewards Points: 0
Default

Can you use a 20A recepticle on 15A circuit?


Quote:
Originally Posted by HouseHelper View Post
It says not less than. There is no prohibition on using a single receptacle that is more than.
210.21(B)(1) refers to a single receptacle on an individual branch circuit.
On a 15A branch, a receptacle not less than could mean 15A or higher.
However, table 210.21(B)(3) states that for a 15A circuit the receptacle rating is Not over 15. This table does not make any reference to a single or duplex receptacle, or whether or not there are other receptacles on the circuit.

So, the interpretive statement would read that a 15A individual branch circuit can have only a 15A receptacle, since it cannot have one with a lower rating, and it cannot have one over 15A per table 210.21(B)(3).

This one is over-done. Let's move on.
__________________

KE2KB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2008, 09:10 PM   #33
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: New Jersey, USA
Posts: 1,202
Rewards Points: 0
Default

Can you use a 20A recepticle on 15A circuit?


Quote:
Originally Posted by chris75 View Post
Simple. 210.21 (B)(1), states that a single receptacle on an individual branch circuit shall have an smpre rating not less than that of the branch circuit, so last I knew 20 amp rated receptacle is NOT less than a 15 amp branch circuit, and that is EXACTLY what this code section is telling us.
Yes, but you need to take table 210.21(B)(3) into consideration. The table overrides the statement in 210.21(B)(1).

The following mathematical statement is true:

1) If A not less than 15 (210.21(B)(1)) and A is not greater than 15 (Table 210.21(B)(3)) Then A=15.

If this is not true, then the universe in which we all live is not real!
__________________


Last edited by KE2KB; 12-20-2008 at 09:15 PM.
KE2KB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2008, 09:11 PM   #34
Electrician
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Connecticut, Litchfield
Posts: 2,015
Rewards Points: 0
Default

Can you use a 20A recepticle on 15A circuit?


Quote:
Originally Posted by KE2KB View Post
210.21(B)(1) refers to a single receptacle on an individual branch circuit.
On a 15A branch, a receptacle not less than could mean 15A or higher.
However, table 210.21(B)(3) states that for a 15A circuit the receptacle rating is Not over 15. This table does not make any reference to a single or duplex receptacle, or whether or not there are other receptacles on the circuit.

So, the interpretive statement would read that a 15A individual branch circuit can have only a 15A receptacle, since it cannot have one with a lower rating, and it cannot have one over 15A per table 210.21(B)(3).



This one is over-done. Let's move on.
STOP! table 210.21 (B)(3) is ONLY for duplex receptacles, you really need to learn how to read the NEC. Read the NEC definitions also.

Also, why would they even put 210.21(B)(1) into text if table 210.21(B)(3) actually over ruled it? It makes no sense. Read 210.21(B)(3) FIRST before looking at the table. Your seriously confusing a duplex and a single round receptacle.

Last edited by chris75; 12-20-2008 at 09:15 PM.
chris75 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2008, 09:11 PM   #35
Licensed Pro
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: SC
Posts: 1,541
Rewards Points: 0
Default

Can you use a 20A recepticle on 15A circuit?


Re-read the first sentence of 210(B)(3)... notice the words TWO or more
__________________
"Life is hard. Life is harder when you're stupid." John Wayne
HouseHelper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2008, 09:16 PM   #36
Electrician
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Connecticut, Litchfield
Posts: 2,015
Rewards Points: 0
Default

Can you use a 20A recepticle on 15A circuit?


Quote:
Originally Posted by KE2KB View Post
Yes, but you need to take table 210.21(B)(3) into consideration. The table overrides the statement in 210.21(B)(1).

The following mathematical statement is true:

1) If A not less than 15 (210.21(B)(1)) and A is not greater than 15 (Table 210.21(B)(3)) Then A=15.

If this is not true, then the universe in which we all live is not real!

Dont be silly, what makes you think table 210.21(B)(3) even applies? Ever try reading 210.21 (3) first?
chris75 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2008, 09:19 PM   #37
nap
You talking to me?
 
nap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: sw mi
Posts: 5,407
Rewards Points: 0
Default

Can you use a 20A recepticle on 15A circuit?


ok. I stand corrected.

Now dispute my claim with 210.23 in mind.

while not specifically placing the restriction of a not more than 15 amp recep, it places the possibility of a load greater than the circuit to be connected to the circuit.

with no direction from code to the contrary, I see this as removing the loophole you claim.

So, based on your interpretation of the code, I can put a 100 amp recep on a 15 amp breaker in general use situations, right?

KE2, the other guys are correct about the sections speaking of multiple receps.
nap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2008, 09:19 PM   #38
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: New Jersey, USA
Posts: 1,202
Rewards Points: 0
Default

Can you use a 20A recepticle on 15A circuit?


OK. Now I see it. However, I believe that this is actually an error in the code.
I am going to e-mail NFPA and see if I get a reply.

I apologize for being so adamant about what I thought I was reading. I wasn't paying enough attention to the fact that the table was only referred to in 210.21(B)(3), and not in (B)(1).

Like I said; the code is not a perfect document.
__________________

KE2KB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2008, 09:21 PM   #39
Electrician
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Connecticut, Litchfield
Posts: 2,015
Rewards Points: 0
Default

Can you use a 20A recepticle on 15A circuit?


Quote:
Originally Posted by nap View Post

So, based on your interpretation of the code, I can put a 100 amp recep on a 15 amp breaker in general use situations, right?
Of course you can. Why would it matter the OCD will protect the wiring. They dont make a receptacle for EVERY amperage. so you do what you have to do.
chris75 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2008, 09:24 PM   #40
Electrician
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Connecticut, Litchfield
Posts: 2,015
Rewards Points: 0
Default

Can you use a 20A recepticle on 15A circuit?


Quote:
Originally Posted by KE2KB View Post
OK. Now I see it. However, I believe that this is actually an error in the code.
I am going to e-mail NFPA and see if I get a reply.

I apologize for being so adamant about what I thought I was reading. I wasn't paying enough attention to the fact that the table was only referred to in 210.21(B)(3), and not in (B)(1).

Like I said; the code is not a perfect document.

Its not an error, they dont make a receptacle for every amperage its really that simple, get over it.

This is the EXACT code section that allows a 50 amp receptacle on a 40 amp breaker, do you think that it is a code problem that is in error?
chris75 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2008, 09:34 PM   #41
nap
You talking to me?
 
nap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: sw mi
Posts: 5,407
Rewards Points: 0
Default

Can you use a 20A recepticle on 15A circuit?


Quote:
Originally Posted by chris75 View Post
Of course you can. Why would it matter the OCD will protect the wiring. They dont make a receptacle for EVERY amperage. so you do what you have to do.
then how why would they bother with 210.23. As you said, regardless of the load applied, the OCPD would protect the conductors yet they specifically state that in no case shall the load exceed the circuit rating.

and what does making a recep for every amperage have to do with anything?
nap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2008, 09:42 PM   #42
Electrician
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Connecticut, Litchfield
Posts: 2,015
Rewards Points: 0
Default

Can you use a 20A recepticle on 15A circuit?


Quote:
Originally Posted by nap View Post
then how why would they bother with 210.23. As you said, regardless of the load applied, the OCPD would protect the conductors yet they specifically state that in no case shall the load exceed the circuit rating.

and what does making a recep for every amperage have to do with anything?

210.23 is exactly what it says, as far as your second question, what receptacle would you install for a 85 amp welder? And what code section would allow it?

Lets keep it really simple, ever see a 40 amp range receptacle?

Last edited by chris75; 12-20-2008 at 09:47 PM.
chris75 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2008, 09:48 PM   #43
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: New Jersey, USA
Posts: 1,202
Rewards Points: 0
Default

Can you use a 20A recepticle on 15A circuit?


What would be the purpose of installing a 20A single receptacle on a 15A branch?
Any device requiring a 20A receptacle would also require a 20A circuit, or else it wouldn't have the 20A plug in the first place.

Having the 20A receptacle on a 15A circuit would only serve to confuse and frustrate the user of the equipment. He would connect the device to the 20A receptacle, only to have the 15A breaker trip after some time.

And then, why permit the 20A single receptacle on a 15A circuit, but not when there are two or more outlets on the circuit, or not when the receptacle is a duplex?

Let's see if I get a reply from NFPA on this.
__________________

KE2KB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2008, 09:54 PM   #44
Electrician
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Connecticut, Litchfield
Posts: 2,015
Rewards Points: 0
Default

Can you use a 20A recepticle on 15A circuit?


Quote:
Originally Posted by KE2KB View Post
What would be the purpose of installing a 20A single receptacle on a 15A branch?
Any device requiring a 20A receptacle would also require a 20A circuit, or else it wouldn't have the 20A plug in the first place.

Having the 20A receptacle on a 15A circuit would only serve to confuse and frustrate the user of the equipment. He would connect the device to the 20A receptacle, only to have the 15A breaker trip after some time.

And then, why permit the 20A single receptacle on a 15A circuit, but not when there are two or more outlets on the circuit, or not when the receptacle is a duplex?

Let's see if I get a reply from NFPA on this.

okay, so why install a 50 amp receptacle on a 40 amp breaker? Your so confusing the issue.

Last edited by chris75; 12-20-2008 at 10:02 PM.
chris75 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2008, 10:09 PM   #45
nap
You talking to me?
 
nap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: sw mi
Posts: 5,407
Rewards Points: 0
Default

Can you use a 20A recepticle on 15A circuit?


Quote:
;200774]210.23 is exactly what it says,
yes, a limitation that states you cannot connect a load larger than the circuit to the load and installing a 20 amp recep on a 15 amp circuit would allow that.

Quote:
as far as your second question, what receptacle would you install for a 85 amp welder? And what code section would allow it?
what kind of welder?

Quote:
Lets keep it really simple, ever see a 40 amp range receptacle?
Nope but what does this have to do with the question at hand?

nap is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Need a wiring diagram Mooreski Electrical 46 03-12-2011 03:25 PM
Wiring a single pole switch into a 220v circuit rlmorgan Electrical 38 10-15-2008 07:59 PM
Problem with circuit breaker. HELP! spartanic Electrical 2 10-28-2007 03:09 PM
So lost - electrical requirements please help lapsis9 HVAC 4 12-20-2006 08:09 PM
Adding new circuit breakers to 100 amp sub panel DrP Electrical 8 05-25-2006 10:05 PM




Top of Page | View New Posts

Copyright © 2003-2014 Escalate Media. All Rights Reserved.