Can You Use A 20A Recepticle On 15A Circuit? - Electrical - Page 3 - DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum

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12-20-2008, 09:03 PM   #31
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by KE2KB No matter how many times I want to read it, I'm not going to see that the code (either 2005 or 2008) states that a 20A single receptacle can be used on a 15A branch. Tell me how you have arrived at this conclusion, please.

Simple. 210.21 (B)(1), states that a single receptacle on an individual branch circuit shall have an smpre rating not less than that of the branch circuit, so last I knew 20 amp rated receptacle is NOT less than a 15 amp branch circuit, and that is EXACTLY what this code section is telling us.

12-20-2008, 09:07 PM   #32
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by HouseHelper It says not less than. There is no prohibition on using a single receptacle that is more than.
210.21(B)(1) refers to a single receptacle on an individual branch circuit.
On a 15A branch, a receptacle not less than could mean 15A or higher.
However, table 210.21(B)(3) states that for a 15A circuit the receptacle rating is Not over 15. This table does not make any reference to a single or duplex receptacle, or whether or not there are other receptacles on the circuit.

So, the interpretive statement would read that a 15A individual branch circuit can have only a 15A receptacle, since it cannot have one with a lower rating, and it cannot have one over 15A per table 210.21(B)(3).

This one is over-done. Let's move on.
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12-20-2008, 09:10 PM   #33
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by chris75 Simple. 210.21 (B)(1), states that a single receptacle on an individual branch circuit shall have an smpre rating not less than that of the branch circuit, so last I knew 20 amp rated receptacle is NOT less than a 15 amp branch circuit, and that is EXACTLY what this code section is telling us.
Yes, but you need to take table 210.21(B)(3) into consideration. The table overrides the statement in 210.21(B)(1).

The following mathematical statement is true:

1) If A not less than 15 (210.21(B)(1)) and A is not greater than 15 (Table 210.21(B)(3)) Then A=15.

If this is not true, then the universe in which we all live is not real!
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Last edited by Ultrarunner2017; 12-20-2008 at 09:15 PM.

12-20-2008, 09:11 PM   #34
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by KE2KB 210.21(B)(1) refers to a single receptacle on an individual branch circuit. On a 15A branch, a receptacle not less than could mean 15A or higher. However, table 210.21(B)(3) states that for a 15A circuit the receptacle rating is Not over 15. This table does not make any reference to a single or duplex receptacle, or whether or not there are other receptacles on the circuit. So, the interpretive statement would read that a 15A individual branch circuit can have only a 15A receptacle, since it cannot have one with a lower rating, and it cannot have one over 15A per table 210.21(B)(3). This one is over-done. Let's move on.
STOP! table 210.21 (B)(3) is ONLY for duplex receptacles, you really need to learn how to read the NEC. Read the NEC definitions also.

Also, why would they even put 210.21(B)(1) into text if table 210.21(B)(3) actually over ruled it? It makes no sense. Read 210.21(B)(3) FIRST before looking at the table. Your seriously confusing a duplex and a single round receptacle.

Last edited by chris75; 12-20-2008 at 09:15 PM.

 12-20-2008, 09:11 PM #35 Licensed Pro   Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: SC Posts: 1,571 Rewards Points: 1,000 Re-read the first sentence of 210(B)(3)... notice the words TWO or more __________________ "Life is hard. Life is harder when you're stupid." John Wayne
12-20-2008, 09:16 PM   #36
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by KE2KB Yes, but you need to take table 210.21(B)(3) into consideration. The table overrides the statement in 210.21(B)(1). The following mathematical statement is true: 1) If A not less than 15 (210.21(B)(1)) and A is not greater than 15 (Table 210.21(B)(3)) Then A=15. If this is not true, then the universe in which we all live is not real!

Dont be silly, what makes you think table 210.21(B)(3) even applies? Ever try reading 210.21 (3) first?

 12-20-2008, 09:19 PM #37 You talking to me?     Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: sw mi Posts: 7,551 Rewards Points: 6,290 ok. I stand corrected. Now dispute my claim with 210.23 in mind. while not specifically placing the restriction of a not more than 15 amp recep, it places the possibility of a load greater than the circuit to be connected to the circuit. with no direction from code to the contrary, I see this as removing the loophole you claim. So, based on your interpretation of the code, I can put a 100 amp recep on a 15 amp breaker in general use situations, right? KE2, the other guys are correct about the sections speaking of multiple receps.
 12-20-2008, 09:19 PM #38 Member   Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: New Jersey, USA Posts: 1,402 Rewards Points: 900 OK. Now I see it. However, I believe that this is actually an error in the code. I am going to e-mail NFPA and see if I get a reply. I apologize for being so adamant about what I thought I was reading. I wasn't paying enough attention to the fact that the table was only referred to in 210.21(B)(3), and not in (B)(1). Like I said; the code is not a perfect document. __________________
12-20-2008, 09:21 PM   #39
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by nap So, based on your interpretation of the code, I can put a 100 amp recep on a 15 amp breaker in general use situations, right?
Of course you can. Why would it matter the OCD will protect the wiring. They dont make a receptacle for EVERY amperage. so you do what you have to do.

12-20-2008, 09:24 PM   #40
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by KE2KB OK. Now I see it. However, I believe that this is actually an error in the code. I am going to e-mail NFPA and see if I get a reply. I apologize for being so adamant about what I thought I was reading. I wasn't paying enough attention to the fact that the table was only referred to in 210.21(B)(3), and not in (B)(1). Like I said; the code is not a perfect document.

Its not an error, they dont make a receptacle for every amperage its really that simple, get over it.

This is the EXACT code section that allows a 50 amp receptacle on a 40 amp breaker, do you think that it is a code problem that is in error?

12-20-2008, 09:34 PM   #41
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by chris75 Of course you can. Why would it matter the OCD will protect the wiring. They dont make a receptacle for EVERY amperage. so you do what you have to do.
then how why would they bother with 210.23. As you said, regardless of the load applied, the OCPD would protect the conductors yet they specifically state that in no case shall the load exceed the circuit rating.

and what does making a recep for every amperage have to do with anything?

12-20-2008, 09:42 PM   #42
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by nap then how why would they bother with 210.23. As you said, regardless of the load applied, the OCPD would protect the conductors yet they specifically state that in no case shall the load exceed the circuit rating. and what does making a recep for every amperage have to do with anything?

210.23 is exactly what it says, as far as your second question, what receptacle would you install for a 85 amp welder? And what code section would allow it?

Lets keep it really simple, ever see a 40 amp range receptacle?

Last edited by chris75; 12-20-2008 at 09:47 PM.

 12-20-2008, 09:48 PM #43 Member   Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: New Jersey, USA Posts: 1,402 Rewards Points: 900 What would be the purpose of installing a 20A single receptacle on a 15A branch? Any device requiring a 20A receptacle would also require a 20A circuit, or else it wouldn't have the 20A plug in the first place. Having the 20A receptacle on a 15A circuit would only serve to confuse and frustrate the user of the equipment. He would connect the device to the 20A receptacle, only to have the 15A breaker trip after some time. And then, why permit the 20A single receptacle on a 15A circuit, but not when there are two or more outlets on the circuit, or not when the receptacle is a duplex? Let's see if I get a reply from NFPA on this. __________________
12-20-2008, 09:54 PM   #44
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by KE2KB What would be the purpose of installing a 20A single receptacle on a 15A branch? Any device requiring a 20A receptacle would also require a 20A circuit, or else it wouldn't have the 20A plug in the first place. Having the 20A receptacle on a 15A circuit would only serve to confuse and frustrate the user of the equipment. He would connect the device to the 20A receptacle, only to have the 15A breaker trip after some time. And then, why permit the 20A single receptacle on a 15A circuit, but not when there are two or more outlets on the circuit, or not when the receptacle is a duplex? Let's see if I get a reply from NFPA on this.

okay, so why install a 50 amp receptacle on a 40 amp breaker? Your so confusing the issue.

Last edited by chris75; 12-20-2008 at 10:02 PM.

12-20-2008, 10:09 PM   #45
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Quote:
 ;200774]210.23 is exactly what it says,
yes, a limitation that states you cannot connect a load larger than the circuit to the load and installing a 20 amp recep on a 15 amp circuit would allow that.

Quote:
 as far as your second question, what receptacle would you install for a 85 amp welder? And what code section would allow it?
what kind of welder?

Quote:
 Lets keep it really simple, ever see a 40 amp range receptacle?
Nope but what does this have to do with the question at hand?

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