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Old 11-02-2008, 09:40 AM   #1
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can old range be new subpanel


Hi,

On my kitchen remodel I am replacing an electric range with a dual fuel range. The new oven will need 30Amps.

Currently I have approximately a 25' run of 3 CDRS AWG 6 AL Type SE which has a 50 amp breaker at the main panel. The house is 1971 in Fairfax Couny, VA.

Two questions please:

1: Is 50 amps okay for that cable?

2: Can I create a subpanel with that cable and branch to the 30 Amp oven and have two 20 amp 110's for other kitchen needs?

The kitchen is over a finished basement.

Thanks ahead of time, and please use small words, I think I understand more than I probably do.

Ciao,

Rob

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Old 11-02-2008, 09:56 AM   #2
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can old range be new subpanel


You must have 4 conductors in the cable to be able to use for a sub panel.

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Old 11-02-2008, 12:42 PM   #3
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can old range be new subpanel


Thanks. What about running the fourth conductor on its own?
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Old 11-02-2008, 02:23 PM   #4
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can old range be new subpanel


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Originally Posted by moondog111 View Post
Thanks. What about running the fourth conductor on its own?
You can't, its a violation.
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Old 11-02-2008, 02:32 PM   #5
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can old range be new subpanel


No. It must be in one cable.
The range circuit should also have four wires. In the past SE cable was used for ranges. It was not legal then or now.

My suggestion would be to replace the range circuit with a 30 amp double pole breaker and #10/3 NM cable. Make sure the new range/oven is rated for 30 amps on the nameplate.

You can install a sub panel if you need the expansion capabilities for the kitchen. You can feed the new oven from this sub panel.
You will need a four wire cable for your new sub panel.
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Old 11-02-2008, 09:15 PM   #6
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can old range be new subpanel


Hi JV,

Thanks for the not surprising news about not being allowed to run a seprate grounding wire from the sub panel to the main.

I am confused when you say SE cable was never allowed to be used for ranges... why would the builder have done it in 1971 then? Also, if you don't mind... why is my breaker panel a split bus type, where there is no main disconnect and the double pole breakers, for the range and such, plug right into the bus; then half way down the panel there is a 90 Amp disconnect for all the single breakers.

Obviously I will have to have someone pull the meter when I add new circuts... should I be replacing the main panel? There is are a few slots left in it and becasue I am gonig to have to pull wire to the kitchen remodle I figure I will just put a 100 Amp sub panel in an unfinished basement room below the kitchen where I can branch to the kitchen and also take out power for an eventual hot tub that will be on that side of the house. Does this make sense?

Thanks,

Rob
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Old 11-02-2008, 11:31 PM   #7
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can old range be new subpanel


Quote:
Originally Posted by moondog111 View Post
Hi JV,

Thanks for the not surprising news about not being allowed to run a seprate grounding wire from the sub panel to the main.

I am confused when you say SE cable was never allowed to be used for ranges... why would the builder have done it in 1971 then? Also, if you don't mind... why is my breaker panel a split bus type, where there is no main disconnect and the double pole breakers, for the range and such, plug right into the bus; then half way down the panel there is a 90 Amp disconnect for all the single breakers.

Obviously I will have to have someone pull the meter when I add new circuts... should I be replacing the main panel? There is are a few slots left in it and becasue I am gonig to have to pull wire to the kitchen remodle I figure I will just put a 100 Amp sub panel in an unfinished basement room below the kitchen where I can branch to the kitchen and also take out power for an eventual hot tub that will be on that side of the house. Does this make sense?

Thanks,

Rob
I have replaced, I dunno, a billion, split bus panels. Not so much recently, they have fallen off drastically. In my own opinion, there is no reason to allow a split bus to remain in service. And I don't mean just the panel, I mean all the way back to the weatherhead and grounding.

Just swapping the panel is pretty much useless as far as safety goes. While a "six motions of the hand" service disconnecting means is/was legal, there is, in a great number of instances, still a few dozen feet of un-fused 3-wire service cable from the weatherhead at the gable to the panel in the basement.

In other words, if you're already replacing range circuits and running new cable, try to budget a new service too. I can't stomach a longer run than the length of a back-to-back meter/panel install for un-fused service conductors.
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Old 11-02-2008, 11:49 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J. V. View Post
No. It must be in one cable.
The range circuit should also have four wires. In the past SE cable was used for ranges. It was not legal then or now.
Not true. It is still an exception in the 2005 Code. Article 250.140 exception allows an existing branch circuit of SE-type cable to supply a range or clothes dryer. Not that I recommend it, but the tap rules of 210.19(A)(3) would also allow him to side-step the subpanel and directly feed the cooktop and oven from the same 50 amp circuit.

At one time, an SE-type cable with an uninsulated neutral was a legal install. Of course, this is just purely informational. I DO NOT endorse this practice. Four wires to every 120/240 V load, regardless of the Code technicalities that allow only 3.
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Old 11-03-2008, 07:24 AM   #9
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can old range be new subpanel


Thanks In Phase.

I understand that replacing the panel will give me a main disconnect, which would be nice. There are currently 5 breakers controlling all house power. Other than the difficulty in turning off all power at once is there any other concern. The panel is back to back with the meter and has an undergound serivce entrance. What is the concern about replacing grounding and service entrance cable? Is installing a main disconnect before the panel an option? Even if I replace the main panel with a bigger one, don't I want a sub panel on the other side of the house to save me having to pull multiple circuits through the house?





Quote:
Originally Posted by J. V.
No. It must be in one cable.
The range circuit should also have four wires. In the past SE cable was used for ranges. It was not legal then or now.


Not true. It is still an exception in the 2005 Code. Article 250.140 exception allows an existing branch circuit of SE-type cable to supply a range or clothes dryer. Not that I recommend it, but the tap rules of 210.19(A)(3) would also allow him to side-step the subpanel and directly feed the cooktop and oven from the same 50 amp circuit.

At one time, an SE-type cable with an uninsulated neutral was a legal install. Of course, this is just purely informational. I DO NOT endorse this practice. Four wires to every 120/240 V load, regardless of the Code technicalities that allow only 3.

Thanks for the code info, I'll still run a new 4 conductor cable... though it makes perfect sense to me that running a single ground would work perfectly with the existing cable but be against code.

Your help is invalueable. I'm looking forward to making a decision about all this so I can get this kitchen done before x-mas... let alone sleep again.

Ciao,

Rob

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