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Old 02-21-2008, 12:53 AM   #31
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Can I add a second grounding bar to a GE box?


Hello Stubbie .,, yeah ATM it is 0F now and clear sky and yes i did see the moon eclipsed tonite.

ok for other readers reading this if you can scroll up back up to stubbie's photo it will explain about.

just visulized it with two hot conductor going with common netual and have a 100 watt luminaire and a 150 watt big butt tv on circuit A and you are sitting down on your favour chair and turn on the heater on circuit B and enjoy the show about the moon eclipse going on and everything is working fine.

But in few minuites oh oh the netural wire burnt [ just the same idea with netual wire is removed on busbar.] you look at the light got very bright and tv went bonker POOFFFFFF [ small smoke plus big stink came out ] and the heater just almost quit working.

now you can see why little more clearer now ???

that the main reason why we dont use two netural wire in one busbar hole.

Merci, Marc

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Old 02-21-2008, 12:58 AM   #32
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Can I add a second grounding bar to a GE box?


Quote:
But in few minuites oh oh the netural wire burnt [ just the same idea with netual wire is removed on busbar.] you look at the light got very bright and tv went bonker POOFFFFFF [ small smoke plus big stink came out ] and the heater just almost quit working.
I couldn't have said it better.......have you noticed that neither one of us can spell worth a damn...... .....or maybe we just can't type worth a......

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Old 02-21-2008, 01:20 AM   #33
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Can I add a second grounding bar to a GE box?


Well,, you caught me on the mistake with misspelling because i have two cats were sitting on me and they want to play with me for while

Merci, Marc
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Old 02-21-2008, 01:40 AM   #34
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Can I add a second grounding bar to a GE box?


Cheers Frenchy.....

Time for me to put the lights out......
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Old 02-21-2008, 06:52 AM   #35
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Can I add a second grounding bar to a GE box?


Wow, you guys are great at explaining things!
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Old 02-21-2008, 11:22 AM   #36
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Can I add a second grounding bar to a GE box?


So the new drawing is like this below. The current flow shown in situation A is changed as it was intentionally shown incorrectly in the first drawing. If the drawing of situation A were correct you would have feed back current on everything connected to the neutral bar.

The problem with connecting both ground and neutral under the same screw as in Situation A is because it may turn into Situation B. Unlikely but **** happens.

So for practical purposes to get a better picture of what is going on with a loose connection as shown in situation B lets pull both wires out of the hole and join them together as shown. First thing to see is we no longer have bonding to the neutral bar and as a result no low impedance path to the service neutral and center tap of the transformer.
The 120 volt appliance will not operate because for all practical purposes we have an open neutral. However we have set up the potential for the metal case of the appliance to become energized. What we have here is all paths to the center tap of the transformer have been eliminated by unbonding from the neutral bar. And we have only one path and that is to the metal case of the appliance. All we need to do is ground that metal case to a path back to the source and current will flow on the metal case of the appliance. I've shown this in the second diagram below. For a more realistic picture I've shown this as a person coming up to the appliance (lets call it a kitchenaid mixer) and turning it on. One hand on the mixer and the other hand on the metal sink which I am simply showing as a green wire back to the water pipe bond then traveling the water pipe bond grounding conductor to the neutral bar completing the circuit to the the transformer.

Remember we have only one path so all current will seek that path be it low impedance or high.
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Old 02-21-2008, 03:29 PM   #37
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Can I add a second grounding bar to a GE box?


Okay Stubbie, here's another question for you.


I just got back from my buddies house helping him carry a sofa into his basement, and I started looking around aand looked at his panel (which had no cover, btw). It is a 40 space (I think) Cutlet Hammer. I noticed that the service neutral came in and went to the bar on the right side of the panel. All the grounds and neutrals were on seperate bars, but the grounds went to the bar where the service neutral was attached to, and the neutrals went to the other bar. Is there anything wrong with that?
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Old 02-21-2008, 03:52 PM   #38
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Can I add a second grounding bar to a GE box?


If the first means of disconnect that the service entrance wires land on is a main breaker in the panel then this is the service equipment and it will be fed by only 3 wires. If this is your friends case then look closely at that panel you should see a bonding strap or some other means connecting the two bars together and a bonding screw or other means bonding both to the metal cabinet. Now if this is the case even though the the neutrals are on a different bar than what the service neutral lands on all is fine because they are bonded to each other and the service neutral. I would not have done it that way but it is not unsafe at all to do it like your friends panel.

Why is the cover off it....that is an accident waiting to happen.
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Old 02-21-2008, 05:21 PM   #39
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Can I add a second grounding bar to a GE box?


Quote:
Originally Posted by philS View Post
Assuming the wires continue to touch each other but not the neutral bar, and if the neutrals are on different legs, the loads on those circuits will see 240 V? I really ought to try drawing a picture but intuitively this seems right. If the neutrals are on the same leg, then the loads simply won't work.
You will have to be a little clearer in what you are describing as I'm not quite following.
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Old 02-21-2008, 07:26 PM   #40
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Can I add a second grounding bar to a GE box?


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Originally Posted by Stubbie View Post
If the first means of disconnect that the service entrance wires land on is a main breaker in the panel then this is the service equipment and it will be fed by only 3 wires. If this is your friends case then look closely at that panel you should see a bonding strap or some other means connecting the two bars together and a bonding screw or other means bonding both to the metal cabinet. Now if this is the case even though the the neutrals are on a different bar than what the service neutral lands on all is fine because they are bonded to each other and the service neutral. I would not have done it that way but it is not unsafe at all to do it like your friends panel.

Why is the cover off it....that is an accident waiting to happen.

It just struck me as odd that it would have ALL the neutrals on the other bar than where the service neutral connects. Yes, there is a bonding STRAP between the 2 bars.

The cover was off because he just added a circuit the other day (he is finishing part of the basement). I told him to wait till a mouse or something gets in there - or worse a child (but not a worry because he doesn't have kids).
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Old 02-21-2008, 11:58 PM   #41
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Can I add a second grounding bar to a GE box?


It was just a preference by the installer. I've never quite understood it but some do it that way. My preference in a split neutral panel that is top fed is to bring all the 15 amp circuits in top left and connect to that sides neutral bar and 20 amps in top right to that sides neutral bar using the back row of knockouts first. All 15 amp breakers left bus stabs and 20's right side bus stabs. 2 poles where I don't have to cross under the panel into the bottom gutter or cross the service entrance and i prefer them in the top part of the panel busses. I think chris75 has a service entrance with the cables that way in a recent post don't know how he does the guts.

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