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Old 05-27-2013, 02:31 AM   #31
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Can I add circuits to my sub panel?


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Originally Posted by sirsparksalot View Post
No shame needed, Marc. Old school is best imo
Here the listing I know I will find it one way or other.

Found it in my old bookmark it was in pretty deep so dug it up.

http://www.simetric.co.uk/siwire_elect.htm


Merci,
Marc

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Old 05-27-2013, 02:40 AM   #32
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Can I add circuits to my sub panel?


I would not shut this thread down, without first posting a crossover post to the new thread.

As for not having to pull all new feeder through that conduit, which is hard as hell to do, after it has been in there, due to without the right equipment to force the grease to help lubricate the inside of the conduit, then having a winch or a few guys with muscles, try to stick with what you have for the feeders, and then go with what your local code enforcement states, in how to deal with adding a ground rod at that panel.

So go ahead and start the new thread from this point forward, but start with the following on the first post:

1) How many circuits do you plan on putting in the new panel.
2) How many amps do you plan on making that circuit, due to as I can guess from the pic's you should be able to possibly do at most 150 amps.
3) How many amps is the main service at the main panel (100, 150, 200)?
4) You do need to do a load calculation to determine how much "room" you have available for expansion of your current electric distribution system that you have at the main panel.
5) Take a deep breath, sit down with some paper, or copy off of the posts from this thread for research, while doing this project, that you have something to go back to, while bringing the sub-panel up to more modern standards for what you want to do out at that outbuilding.

6) From there, we can continue to build on to keep you moving in the right direction, and it is still baby steps.

Just do not take it as we are being overbearing, but when it comes to the Internet, we are all spread across the globe on this site, especially on this forum, and also when we come across projects like this, there are at times, some of us are also in the middle of doing the same thing, and we can also use the info gathered from these threads as to the best way to attack our own projects, then help others out when they have a issue.

Most like myself grew up in a family of my dad being retired Air Force & telephone company, and he dealt with a lot of electrical wiring stuff, especially in the air force, when he was stationed at places like Johnston Island in the Pacific, Brindisi Italy, and Brazil. I myself gathered a lot of my knowledge by working with my father on projects as a kid, and then dealing with this stuff in the Navy. Now I do it as a homeowner, dealing with my own home, and helping friends consulting them how to do something, which most times, I am coming back here and searching through old threads for stuff, or on Yahoo or google, or even Mike Holt's forum for stuff.

I still also do stuff old school when planning out stuff, by grabbing a pencil and some paper, and drawing out the diagram of what I am wanting to do with a circuit, and making notes on it, what I want to do, and stuff I need to finish the project. I think that once we can start over and start from the beginning with the five points I made above, we can get you moving in the right direction, plus if you need to find out if you really want to know, what part of the California code or the NEC specific to what you are doing, ask up. The way you learn is by asking, and if you find it is too much info, post a Stop and back up some post, because sometimes when code cites start getting thrown out on threads, especially like this, they either are too vague, or end up not being exactly what you wanted, or even worse, just way too much info that then overwhelms.

I have a PDF copy of both versions of the 2011 NEC if you want either one, let me know, and I can send you the link that I have them stored on a private file server. One is almost 1 gig, due to how much info is in that "bible".
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Old 05-27-2013, 02:42 AM   #33
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Can I add circuits to my sub panel?


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Originally Posted by frenchelectrican View Post
Here the listing I know I will find it one way or other.

Found it in my old bookmark it was in pretty deep so dug it up.

http://www.simetric.co.uk/siwire_elect.htm


Merci,
Marc
You know Marc, I tried to search for apps that could use a cross picture of a wire, then determine wire gauge size that way, but I guess no one has figured it out, or even if they could even be able to, since there is some math involved, and doubt if iOS or Android OS would be able to do it properly
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Old 05-27-2013, 02:54 AM   #34
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Can I add circuits to my sub panel?


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Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post
You know Marc, I tried to search for apps that could use a cross picture of a wire, then determine wire gauge size that way, but I guess no one has figured it out, or even if they could even be able to, since there is some math involved, and doubt if iOS or Android OS would be able to do it properly
Bonjour Greg.,

This is one of few time we both DO agree with this.

The biggest issue with the Apps is how they can scale the size due many differnt smart phone have differnt size setting so there is no standard so I rather do in old school methold this is about the only safest way to do this.

Even thru in our sister site ( Electrician Talk ) did have couple guys mention about the apps but personally I never try it unless I find a way to test run it. again the scale size is the issue with it.

Merci,
Marc
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Old 05-27-2013, 03:11 AM   #35
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Can I add circuits to my sub panel?


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Marc, you are so right. i was around while they were fixing the place up. he ran an underground cable,i think the outer casing is yellow. they ran conduit up the building. I'm almost dug down to the conduit sweep in the ground now.

i guess if i turn off the power, i could pull a wire and either see the writing on the back, or is there a tool, like you size bolts? i'd rather not disturb the main lugs unless i have to.

re: wire size, he knew my long term plan was to add buildings. if anything, he worried that it wasn't as beefy as i'd need. but he never mentioned it should have been 4 wire cable.
I am pretty sure you did read Gregzol's comment and I do agree with Greg with this one.

Take a breather for a minuite I know some case it can really overwheam someone espcally they not prepared for the codes and metholds of doing the task properly.

It never hurt to ask us any kind of question we will be happy to answer the question along the way.

I did noticed that you are in Californie so therefore you should be on 2011 NEC code cycle with couple modifactions to suit the state of Californie requirement.

Now let answer your question the yellow casing that is not a normal item what we the Electrician to use at all. ( note: typically thickwalled yellow plastique pipe is genrally used with gaz only )

Normally we will use PVC conduit ( grey plastqiue pipe ) run underground and it will be sized by the conductor size and numbers of them in there.

You can turn the power off to the subpanel ( make sure it is off 100% ) then you can remove one conductors if all three are the same size any one of them will do it ) and bend around a little you should see the size marking if not then if my memory serve me right that #2 alum is roughly about the same size as 3/8 inch bolt give or take couple sixteen inches that what it should be on that sizewise.

Oh if you have time please and I mean please do post more photo like main panel and the conduit outside of the buildings. the more photo the more easier for us to help you with proper way to do this.

Bon Chance !

Merci,
Marc
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Old 05-27-2013, 03:18 AM   #36
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Can I add circuits to my sub panel?


sounds like i can size it with a guage.

Sirsparksalot,
oops about the 600 VOLTS... im like that telephone game...i read it correctly, but by the time i repeated it, the message got corrupted!

main breaker; 70 AMP double pole.

instead of pursuing my project, i think i better see what i can do about this wiring dilemna.
i cant run new cable right now. what do i do?
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Old 05-27-2013, 03:24 AM   #37
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Can I add circuits to my sub panel?


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Originally Posted by jmoser View Post
sounds like i can size it with a guage.

Sirsparksalot,
oops about the 600 VOLTS... im like that telephone game...i read it correctly, but by the time i repeated it, the message got corrupted!

main breaker; 70 AMP double pole.

instead of pursuing my project, i think i better see what i can do about this wiring dilemna.
i cant run new cable right now. what do i do?
70 amp double pole breaker that should be right with #4 CU or #3 alum if I did read the chart correct.

Can you any chance take a photo of outside where ya dug up and you mention yellow plastque pipe is ??

I am try to fit the puzzle right there.

Merci,
Marc
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Old 05-27-2013, 03:52 AM   #38
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Can I add circuits to my sub panel?


Quote:
Originally Posted by jmoser View Post
sounds like i can size it with a guage.

Sirsparksalot,
oops about the 600 VOLTS... im like that telephone game...i read it correctly, but by the time i repeated it, the message got corrupted!

main breaker; 70 AMP double pole.

instead of pursuing my project, i think i better see what i can do about this wiring dilemna.
i cant run new cable right now. what do i do?
Can you do a load calculation of what your current electrical demands are right now:

Amp & volt of furnace (gas or electric), A/C or heat pump (max amp rating on the plate, SEER if known, or age if you know), electric appliances like water heater, stove/range, microwave, disposall, dishwasher, wash machine, dryer, main breaker amp rating, how many circuit breakers in use on the main panel, including this 70amp double pole.

Putting all those pieces together, can help us to help you to see how much headroom you have for whatever you plan on doing out there at the outbuilding (240v welder, air compressor, etc.).

I was so lazy when I redid the 12/2 NM Romex from our house to our garage underground (my next door neighbor to the left of us, has the same thing with hers (palm slap on forehead), that I just pulled 10/2 UF, keeping the 20 amp single pole circuit, because all I intended was for lights and four outlets.

Now I really wished that I had pulled a circuit large enough for 60 amps 240vAC, because I have found that thanks to my son, I had to go out and purchase a welder, and because of our service out there, I am stuck using only 120v 20 amp max equipment.

So as you can see, you are not the only one who gets fun projects like this, and then having to figure out how to either make it work for them, or go with a more intense and expensive project to do the job right.
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Old 05-27-2013, 03:55 AM   #39
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Can I add circuits to my sub panel?


I'm running behind--typing on the ipad--im too slow!
I really appreciate that you guys are trying to help me, and you need the complete info to do so.
I'll try to post pics etc tomorrow.

mashing the terminology--I think the underground wire has yellow sheathing, not casing. its definitely directly buried, there's no conduit until it approaches the pumpshed. it comes out of the ground in a 1.5" pvc riser.

the cable starts at the main breaker box, which is mounted flush, inside the house,
recently remodeled the house. I think the cable runs under the house, then under a concrete walkway, then under a yard before it gets to the pumpshed.
I'll take a picture of the wires supplying the 70 amp breaker with the front panel removed.



t
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Old 05-27-2013, 04:30 AM   #40
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Can I add circuits to my sub panel?


dont give up on me i'll get pics and plans drawn.
and i;ll try to gather as much unfo as i can it will take me some time to get it together and I'll be back for your help.

Many thanks to you Gregzoll, and all the Veterans and their families for the service given to us all. Memorial Day is a reminder to say thanks, but its not the only time I'm thankful. Cheers to you!
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Old 05-27-2013, 05:06 AM   #41
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Can I add circuits to my sub panel?


I hope not, but sounds like that yellow cable sheathing may be only 12 AWG Romex. Yikes!
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Old 06-03-2013, 09:35 AM   #42
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Here's my plan. I will add the pictures I took. bear with me on the pictures.



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Old 06-03-2013, 11:03 AM   #43
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Main breaker panel

http://i1265.photobucket.com/albums/...l6/th_Main.jpg


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Old 06-03-2013, 11:26 AM   #44
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Can I add circuits to my sub panel?


sorry, I don't know how to delete this. its repetitive. maybe an administrator can delete?
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Can I add circuits to my sub panel?-power-plan.jpg  

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Old 06-03-2013, 11:31 AM   #45
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Can I add circuits to my sub panel?


On the left are the wires that feed the pump house subpanel
see the ground? He must have buried it to a pipe near the pump house


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