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Old 01-19-2015, 10:20 AM   #1
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Can I Add a 220V in this garage sub pannel


I bought a 220V welder and want to add a circuit to the sub panel in my garage.

At the main box, the feed going to the garage is 220v with 10 guage wire. Currently there is a dp 20 Amp Breaker, but i will upgrade this to a 30 Amp.

In the Garage, this is what the box looks like. it is a Cutler-Hammer. Problem is, i don't space for another breaker. Do i have any options?

I can maybe envision that if i got 4 skinny breakers, the two outside ones could go to the existing circuits and the 2 inner ones (presumably one going to each leg) with the handles tied could be the 220v circuit?

Or will i need to get a new sub panel box?
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Old 01-19-2015, 11:16 AM   #2
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Can I Add a 220V in this garage sub pannel


How many amps are feeding into the garage?Spme welders call for 50-60 amp circuits.
What does the welder require?

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Old 01-19-2015, 12:02 PM   #3
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Can I Add a 220V in this garage sub pannel


Welder needs a 20 Amp breaker
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Old 01-19-2015, 12:41 PM   #4
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Can I Add a 220V in this garage sub pannel


Couple things ..

The current sub-panel is improperly installed which has to do with neutral ground bonding requirements. It appears it is a 3 wire feeder unless the conductors are in metal conduit. If it is a 3 wire feeder in pvc conduit you need to install the bonding means you see on the back of the box. Could also be non compliant period if the sub is in an attached garage as you need a 4 wire feeder with neutral and ground separated.
You can't add any breakers to that panel unless the labeling says it is a 4 circuit panel. In that case skinny/tandem breakers can be added.
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Old 01-19-2015, 04:47 PM   #5
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Can I Add a 220V in this garage sub pannel


If the panel is labelled for 4 circuits, then you can use a "quad" breaker that has the center two handles tied together. They are available with many different amperage combinations, but in this case a 20/20/20/20 would be the way to go.

As Stubbie said, the three-wire feeder is only allowable here if it was installed quite some time ago, or if there is a metal bonding path back to the main panel separate from the neutral conductor.
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Old 01-19-2015, 04:50 PM   #6
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Can I Add a 220V in this garage sub pannel


Thanks for the info!

Yes, the conductors do come in through a metal conduit and yes, it is a detached garage.

I will look for the labeling tonight, I'm not optimistic that it will be there though.
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Old 01-20-2015, 12:09 PM   #7
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Can I Add a 220V in this garage sub pannel


So definately no labeling on/in the panel.
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Old 01-20-2015, 12:11 PM   #8
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Can I Add a 220V in this garage sub pannel


From the looks of it, i don't see how a quad breaker (or double 220v) breaker would go in here, there is this plastic septum thing seperating the two legs.

Looks like a new panel i guess
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Old 01-20-2015, 08:37 PM   #9
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Can I Add a 220V in this garage sub pannel


Replace it with a 8 circuit or so panel
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Old 01-20-2015, 08:41 PM   #10
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Can I Add a 220V in this garage sub pannel


Either the quad breakers for that panel have a slot to accept the "septum", or that exists to prevent you from installing a multipole breaker in that panel.
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Old 01-20-2015, 08:41 PM   #11
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Can I Add a 220V in this garage sub pannel


Quote:
Originally Posted by ms14 View Post
Thanks for the info!

Yes, the conductors do come in through a metal conduit and yes, it is a detached garage.

I will look for the labeling tonight, I'm not optimistic that it will be there though.
metal conduit.........is the whole run metal that you can see, or maybe just where it comes out of the ground and it's pvc only.?

3 wire to a outbuilding was permitted at one time. wondering if you change the panel would you be required to bring the ground out too..
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Old 01-20-2015, 08:43 PM   #12
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Can I Add a 220V in this garage sub pannel


Quote:
Originally Posted by ritelec View Post
Replace it with a 8 circuit or so panel
Could also install a 60 two pole there and feed a separate 8 circuit or so sub panel and make that your main breaker
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Old 01-20-2015, 10:24 PM   #13
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Can I Add a 220V in this garage sub pannel


Re Ritelec's suggestion of another downstream sub panel, are there any Code/safety/practical implications of having a breaker protecting a breaker protecting a breaker? Or like other things in life (!?) is there no such thing as too much protection?

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