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-   -   cable splice kit instead of juction box? (http://www.diychatroom.com/f18/cable-splice-kit-instead-juction-box-23854/)

pat72 07-18-2008 12:30 AM

cable splice kit instead of juction box?
 
1 Attachment(s)
Hi, I read many posts stating the mandatory use of an accessible junction box even in the case of splicing an old wire in order to add some lenght to it. I would like to know what the pros think of heat shrinkable splice connector kits such as the one in the pic below? Couldn't this kit be used and buried behind drywall without the need for a JB? After all this kit is approved as an underground cable splice kit that can be buried and is also waterproof!!!
THanks

frenchelectrican 07-18-2008 01:57 AM

AFAIK ., No they are not used inside at all they are only used on outdoor useage that it.

You can see why it did not say anything about inside useage so that is designed for outdoor useage where you have to deal with repair or splice in Underground appacations.

Merci,Marc

Termite 07-18-2008 08:01 AM

There is no way to splice a conductor in a wall without a junction box. :no:

jbfan 07-18-2008 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thekctermite (Post 140426)
There is no way to splice a conductor in a wall without a junction box. :no:

There is a way, just not legally!:jester:

Termite 07-18-2008 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbfan (Post 140432)
There is a way, just not legally!:jester:

Oh yeah, I should have said that differently! There are a hundred ways to do it...Including but not limited to duct tape, bailing wire, rubber bands, clothespins, wire nuts, etc.

Just no legal way to do it! :laughing:

jrclen 07-18-2008 10:00 AM

Except the connectors used by prefab house builders. I can't find a link but they are plug together flying splices for romex and are not required to be in boxes.

pat72 07-18-2008 02:05 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Thanks for the replies guys,

I took a look at the NEC (2008 / residential electrical installations) and found this article:
300.15 Boxes, Conduit bodies, or fittings – Where required.
Where the wiring method is conduit, tubing, Type AC cable, type MI cable, nonmetallic sheathed cable, or other cables, a box or conduit body shall be installed at each conductor splice point, outlet point, switch point, junction point, termination point, or pull point, UNLESS otherwise permitted in 300.15(A) through (M).
And 300.15(H) says:

(H) Insulated devices.
As permitted in 334.40(B), a box or conduit body shall not be required for insulated devices supplied by nonmetallic-sheathed cable.

So I went to 334.40(B):

334.40 Boxes and fittings.
(B) Devices of insulated material. Switch, outlets and tap devices of insulating material shall be permitted to be used without boxes in exposed cable wiring and for rewiring in existing buildings where the cable is concealed and fished. Opening in such devices shall form a close fit around the outer covering of the cable etc.

Now the last pic I attached was as Frenchelectrican mentioned for underground application. I was just using it as an example but there are other kits similar, such as the one below which is not necessarily for underground application and can handle wire sizes 14-10. It seems to me that this kit fills all the requirements needed to make a good connection that is well insulated which can be, according to 334.40(B), concealed inside a wall without the need for a JB.

Please let me know if I am missing something here. Thanks

Stubbie 07-18-2008 04:48 PM

Not quite that simple....but you are close....:)

334.40 B does indeed allow an insulated device used for splicing nm-b to be fished into a concealed space without a JB. BUT it must be a listed UL QAAV. Please reference page 240 of the ul white book (2007) for a detailed description. A good example is the AMP Connect non-metallic sheathed cable interconnector. We use these quite often when connecting 60C wire to 90c light fixtures. They allow us to place the connector connected to at least 18" or more of NM-b (90C) and then to the NM (60C) in a concealed wall on the switch loop without a box. Very handy when rewiring in an older existing building.

The broad scope of 334.40 is really directed at mobile homes and manufactured homes where interconnection devices are common due to the joining of the two halves of the structure but also in very restricted uses in stick homes...ie...existing ones.

http://ulstandardsinfonet.ul.com/outscope/2256.html

JohnJ0906 07-19-2008 06:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thekctermite (Post 140435)
Oh yeah, I should have said that differently! There are a hundred ways to do it...Including but not limited to duct tape, bailing wire, rubber bands, clothespins, wire nuts, etc.

Just no legal way to do it! :laughing:

Correct! At some point, an electrician, such as me, will make a lot of money fixing these. Don't try this at home! http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...r/HPIM0614.jpg

Stubbie 07-19-2008 02:13 PM

John I've seen a lot of crazy things but never have I seen that. I see you have created a little drywall patching in the process....:)

JohnJ0906 07-19-2008 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stubbie (Post 140790)
John I've seen a lot of crazy things but never have I seen that. I see you have created a little drywall patching in the process....:)

This job was a little... shall we say... extreme... :whistling2:
The walls and ceilings were partially open already.
That little gem is only one of about 20 buried splices, and many other problems besides.

pat72 07-19-2008 08:07 PM

Stubbie, thanks for such a detailed answer. A little disappointed I must say that we can have a product designed to be buried underground (waterproof) in which wires are tightened using metal screws and sealed in shrink tube but yet cannot be concealed behind drywall while some cheap looking Tyco plastic connectors seem to be perfectly fine for mobile and manufactured homes. I guess there must be a reason behind all that. Being one of the NEC gurus out there (assumption based on having read many of your other very detailed posts), if you know the answer to this question, feel free to pass it along. If the NEC says that's what it is then that’s what it is but I usually like to know what lies behind the no-no’s of electrical installations.

JohnJ0906 07-19-2008 08:11 PM

The chances of a fire starting underground are much less than one starting behind your wall.

It can be much, much more difficult to replace a wire underground than in a wall, so this has been tested and approved for underground.

pat72 07-19-2008 08:28 PM

Quote:

The chances of a fire starting underground are much less than one starting behind your wall.

It can be much, much more difficult to replace a wire underground than in a wall, so this has been tested and approved for underground.
Makes lots of sense but why don't they want to approve a product such as the Tyco kit used in mobile homes for every house in the country? If that plastic thingy can be UL listed, I would think that a similar product could be designed, tested and approved for a stud home which would be a great way to avoid the aggravation of having to install a JB in some unsightly spot in order to add 4 ft of lenth to an existing run.

Stubbie 07-19-2008 09:14 PM

Pat

Not so sure I fit into the code guru class but thanks just the same.......:)

What makes the product acceptable as a QAAV device is that it has undergone testing proving it is the equivalent in temperature rise and insulating properties of NM-b cable. I believe smarthome is now making a QAAV connector. Anyway it is a rather obscure part of code for most electricians because of its limited application. For what it is worth tyco is starting to report some failures with these connectors. But they got the UL to list them soooooooo.....FWIW I don't use them anymore but they were a handy fix for what I mentioned earlier. Convincing the inspector was not always successful.....so they went to the wayside.


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