Uh Oh....I am working on another project and was in my main today and who ever wired it (8 year old house) has the bare copper and the white (neutral?) in the same holes....Do I have a problem here???
Pudge, yea, it doesn't make sense not to, that was wierd seeing that, the ground bus (attached to the BIG green wire) is on the right and the neutral bus is on the left but whoever did it ran both the neutral and grounds into the same holes either on the left or right as the cables entered the box...Crazy...I have a county inspector coming out tuesday for a pool electrical inspection, I will show him and let you guys know what he says...perhaps I should take a pic?
Pudge, I'm not doubting your answer, but since everything is connected on the bus bar, I would love to know the thinking behind:
1) It's OK to double up w/ two ground wires
2) It's not OK to double up two neutral wires or a ground and a neutral.
Thanks,
bp2
I would love to know the thinking behind:
1) It's OK to double up w/ two ground wires
2) It's not OK to double up two neutral wires or a ground and a neutral.
hey al don't get confused between haveing grounds and neutrals on the same bus in a MAIN panel to having grounds and neutrals in the same hole. the reason being is that main panels have the neutral and ground bars bonded. Unless you have a main disconect between the meter and main panel then grounds and neutrals must be isolated from each other. bp2 to answer your question I don't know the reason behind it but its in the NEC so its just "law" and from what my tech teacher tells me there is an eception. if the panel has oval holes in the bus bar 2 neutrals can be put in it my teachers theory is that its because with the oval one the screw will push it against the side of the hole thus making a tighter connection.
Part of the reason you cannot terminate two neutrals in one hole is because if, during the course of service, one of the neutrals needs to be removed and the other accidentally comes off...open neutral. I'm here to tell you it's a BAD thing. If it is the neutral for a MWBC, all appliances will go 220. If you happen to grab the neutral you will get whacked something fierce.
I got nailed on one at my buddy's place and I had to convince my arm that we needed to let go. Even had to do a backward count in my head. When I got off of it, my buddy says: "You were humming" I told him "I always thought that noise was in my head."
Bottom line: Code says land one per hole. Panel manufacturers say land one per hole. There isn't much reason you should need to run two in a hole.
mwbc- multiwire branch circuit- where two hots (in a resi situaiotn) share a neutral.
generally not a problem extending the wire although I have had inspectors look down their noses at such work. I know of no code violation but they always seem to think there is one.
OK – Pudge says that I can put 2 grounds in the same hole.
Nap says that 2 ground wires can be in the same hole IF the ground bar is rated for it.
How do I determine if the ground bar (there is only one bus bar used for both ground and neutral) is rated for 2 ground wires in the same hole?
Would it be better to add a small length of wire to the ground wire so that it can have it’s own hole or leave the two ground wires in the same hole as it is now? I really don’t want to reorganize the whole bus bar to free up a hole within reach of the second ground wire.
there should be a sticker or a info sheet on the panel or its' cover that lists what size and quantity of wires allowed to be inserted in a hole or if the ground bar is a seperate one, they come with a sticker to be applied near the bar.
I have been chastized by an inspector before for multi (ground) wires in a terminal. He stated that typically a terminal accepting of multi wires is egg shaped, with the point down so as to apply equal pressure on the entire group of strands. Actually made sense to me. Rarely seen that in a ground bar though even when they were rated for mulitple wires though.
Oh, the other thing, a terminal must be rated for stranded or solid as well to accept either.
but as petey said, most ground bars are rated for multiple conductors.
bp2 just leave then both in the hole my electrical occupations teacher at vo-tech told me about this and said nothing about the bar has to be rated for it. he has like 10 years experience in the field i doubt nap has any but i could be wrong. so nap don't flame me because i guessed wrong
Don't flame you? After that?
This is a pretty arrogant statement from someone in vo-tech.
I myself have probably nearly as much experience as you have years on this earth. I guarantee you Nap is no different.
why are people such on this forum I was just telling you what i was told. If i was taught wrong you can cite some code to prove me wrong but instead you just wanna say that you are right and don't care to tell me where in the code is says that the bar must be rated for 2 grounds in the same hole.
but you know i said that i could be wrong i mean this is a diy site not a professonal site so you know for all i know he could have been just a diy'er that knows nothing about the code now i know different. i was just trying to help the guy then some other people make it hard but still i want to know where it says that you cant put 2 grounds in the same hole unless the bar is rated for it.
bu tyou know i said that i could be wrong i mean this is a diy site not a professonal so you know i was just trying to help the guy then some other people make it hard but still i want to know where it says that you cant put 2 grounds in the same hole unless the bar is rated for it.
110.14
(A) Terminals Connection of conductors to terminal parts shall ensure a thoroughly good connection without damaging the conductors and shall be made by means of pressure connectors (including set-screw type), solder lugs, or splices to flexible leads. Connection by means of wire-binding screws or studs and nuts that have upturned lugs or the equivalent shall be permitted for 10 AWG or smaller conductors.
Terminals for more than one conductor and terminals used to connect aluminum shall be so identified.
Not sure where you are going with your trainging pudge but your instructor is not above being corrected. One of the problems we have in our trade is handymen that "know" everything and spread such disinformation. He may have 10 years in the field but apparently he has not learned everything there is to know.
well, IF something concerning this changed, it is irrelevent in either of the two states I work in as 08 code has not bee instituted yet. I know of few jurisdictions that have accepted the 08 as of yet.
So Andy, what does the code say about a terminal being listed for 2 conductors?
Oh, I know what it says; exactly the same thing as the '05 code.
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