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Old 09-24-2013, 04:51 PM   #31
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I don't really get why everyone is against the OP, it's his money, he can spend it as he sees fit.... I do jobs that are spec'd out for #12 AWG for lighting, I think that is just about as big as a joke as using #10.... everyone needs to relax around here and keep it to code, and fewer opinions.
i don't believe the op has stated what breaker size he plans to protect the #10 with. if a 20 amp, he can spend his money as he sees fit and i have no problem with that.

if he wants to put in a 30 amp breaker, then we have an issue.

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Old 09-24-2013, 04:55 PM   #32
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i don't believe the op has stated what breaker size he plans to protect the #10 with. if a 20 amp, he can spend his money as he sees fit and i have no problem with that.

if he wants to put in a 30 amp breaker, then we have an issue.
I dont believe he ever even once suggested that he was going in that direction either, if you read back at his responses, they simply suggest he wanted to use the bigger wire, nothing more... everyone else is guilty of assuming the larger breaker size and every other argument that has come to the surface.
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Old 09-24-2013, 05:36 PM   #33
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I don't really get why everyone is against the OP, it's his money, he can spend it as he sees fit.... I do jobs that are spec'd out for #12 AWG for lighting, I think that is just about as big as a joke as using #10.... everyone needs to relax around here and keep it to code, and fewer opinions.
No one is against what they are doing. What it is, is that all of us are questioning who and where he got that it was fine to run branch circuits throughout the house, on #10.
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Old 09-24-2013, 08:49 PM   #34
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I dont believe he ever even once suggested that he was going in that direction either, if you read back at his responses, they simply suggest he wanted to use the bigger wire, nothing more... everyone else is guilty of assuming the larger breaker size and every other argument that has come to the surface.
fair enough. need the op to weigh in on the breaker rating!
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Old 09-24-2013, 09:19 PM   #35
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No one is against what they are doing. What it is, is that all of us are questioning who and where he got that it was fine to run branch circuits throughout the house, on #10.
It IS fine to run branch circuits throughout the house on #10. It's rarely necessary and a waste of money, but it IS fine.

edit:assuming the #10 is protected at 20A or less
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Old 09-24-2013, 09:33 PM   #36
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It IS fine to run branch circuits throughout the house on #10. It's rarely necessary and a waste of money, but it IS fine.

edit:assuming the #10 is protected at 20A or less
Again, no one is stating that it is not fine, it is just that the OP has not clarified why in particular they are going through all of this wasted effort to pull a bunch of unneeded #10 for branch circuits.
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Old 09-25-2013, 06:09 AM   #37
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You did not just state that. I see no way that this is going to pass code, let alone the fact that it is placing a lot of unneeded resistance on each circuit.

Where did you come up with that it is okay to wire branch circuits in this manner? I would only do something like this, if I was wiring Isolation transformers on a 240vAC circuit, for audio or video distribution, or for a panel for use as lighting control.
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No one is against what they are doing. What it is, is that all of us are questioning who and where he got that it was fine to run branch circuits throughout the house, on #10.
You did...twice.
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Old 09-25-2013, 11:50 AM   #38
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You did...twice.
Again, at this point it is moot. If you want to argue about this dead horse, it is over. I am not going to go back and forth with you on the fact that the OP never stated a reason why they were going through all of these troubles.

As for how many times I stated before, really does it matter? You seem to worry more about what people state on these forums, in reply to the subject matter, then worry about the subject matter.
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Old 09-25-2013, 01:02 PM   #39
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really does it matter?
thanx to all who saved me alot of work
I ended up pulling romex #12 wires instead of #10

In answer to questions about the circuit size. I wanted to use #10 for 20 AMP circuits. The goal was efficiency. As many of you pointed out it is within code but not advisable and not really needed and won't save a whole lot of power.

One follow up question, more to satisfy my curiosity than practical:

NEC says I can bundle romex up to 24 inches right? I'm scratching my head and wondering why is bundling OK for just that much and not more? Is it about overheating? Some sort of effect that one cable has on another? Why only 24 inches?

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Old 09-25-2013, 01:10 PM   #40
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thanx to all who saved me alot of work
I ended up pulling romex #12 wires instead of #10

In answer to questions about the circuit size. I wanted to use #10 for 20 AMP circuits. The goal was efficiency. As many of you pointed out it is within code but not advisable and not really needed and won't save a whole lot of power.

One follow up question, more to satisfy my curiosity than practical:

NEC says I can bundle romex up to 24 inches right? I'm scratching my head and wondering why is bundling OK for just that much and not more? Is it about overheating? Some sort of effect that one cable has on another? Why only 24 inches?
glad to hear you weren't planning on #12 downstream of a 30 amp breaker. but yeah, the #10 for efficiency is overkill, unless your house is, like, 150 ft long.

as to your second question, it is a heating issue. the more current carrying conductors in a raceway, the more heat that is generated and you need to start derating the maximum current carrying capacity. for raceways under 24", there is no need to derate. how was that distance chosen? past experience, for the most part. i'm not aware of any laboratory tests or similar that prove 24" is some sort of 'magic' distance.
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Old 09-25-2013, 02:12 PM   #41
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how was that distance chosen? past experience, for the most part. i'm not aware of any laboratory tests or similar that prove 24" is some sort of 'magic' distance.
I suppose I was more perplexed by why heat does not occur in those 24" ? Are these some sort of magic 24" where romex can be bundled because the heat effect doesn't occur there?
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Old 09-25-2013, 02:50 PM   #42
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I suppose I was more perplexed by why heat does not occur in those 24" ? Are these some sort of magic 24" where romex can be bundled because the heat effect doesn't occur there?
heat does occur in those 24", its just that the length is so short that it can easily dissipate. the heat is dissipated through air in the sleeve as well as through the conductors themselves. The portio of conductor outside the sleeve is inherently cooler than the portion inside the sleeve and help conduct heat away. as the length of the sleeve increases, there is less airflow and a longer length that heat has to travel along the conductor to get to a cooler area. the portion of the conductor in the middle of the sleeve can't really cool down and hence its maximum allowed ampacity needs to be reduced (more amps = more heat).

24" has been used historically and there are not an epidemic of problems caused by using that length. there is nothing 'magical' about it, just a distance that the code making panel has agreed to set as a limit. i mean, if the sleeve was 24.5" long, it isn't like that is some huge hazard compared to 24" but they had to pick some number. same reason you can't get a driver's license until you're 16, can't buy smokes until you're 18, etc.
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Old 09-25-2013, 03:52 PM   #43
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heat does occur in those 24", its just that the length is so short that it can easily dissipate.
OK I understand now. That makes sense.
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Old 09-25-2013, 09:40 PM   #44
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Your biggest violation would be 312.5(C) Cables.... this code section is far overlooked in my opinion.....
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Old 09-25-2013, 11:59 PM   #45
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Your biggest violation would be 312.5(C) Cables.... this code section is far overlooked in my opinion.....
That would only be if they do not meet conditions a-g, as pointed out at http://www.ecmag.com/section/codes-s...dential-wiring

"This exception permits cables with entirely nonmetallic sheaths to enter the top of a surface-mounted enclosure through one or more nonflexible raceways not less than 18 in. and not more than 10 ft. in length, provided the following conditions are met:

(a) Each cable is fastened within 12 in.—measured along the sheath—of the outer end of the raceway.

(b) The raceway extends directly above the enclosure and does not penetrate a structural ceiling.

(c) A fitting is provided on each end of the raceway to protect the cables from abrasion, and the fittings remain accessible after installation.

(d) The raceway is sealed at the outer end using approved means in order to prevent access to the enclosure through the raceway.

(e) The cable sheath is continuous through the raceway and extends into the enclosure beyond the fitting not less than ¼ in.

(f) The raceway is fastened at its outer end and at other points in accordance with the applicable article.

(g) Where installed as conduit or tubing, the allowable cable fill does not exceed that permitted for complete conduit systems by Table 1 of Chapter 9 of the NEC and all applicable notes thereto.

Remember, this exception can be used only with surface-mounted enclosures and using nonflexible raceways."

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