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Old 01-22-2012, 10:54 PM   #16
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Breaker Panel Replacement Plan


I'll start with your questions, and make your other notes in my plan. Thanks for those.

Our home was built in 1905 and is in Los Angeles.
2,200 sqft
3 floors, which includes a very small basement
5 bedrooms

Chose a 200 amp because we are installing a new box and figured we should be safe now, rather than sorry later.

We have no large loads. Water heater, stove and dryer are all gas. We do have the possibility of replacing the water heater with electric in the future and adding A/C and heat which we do not have now.

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Old 01-22-2012, 11:11 PM   #17
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Really no need for a 200 amp panel, unless you know that you are going to be going with enough heavy loads to warrant.

As for the layout, Bedrooms can all be on one lighting circuit, outlets for those rooms can also be on one circuit. Bath lighting can come off of bedroom/hallway circuit, but outlets for bath need their own breaker. Kitchen/dining/pantry is a kicker, due to you need to sit down and figure all of the various appliances and branches for counters needed.

As for outside, the gate could be on its own, but also could come off of the outside convenience outlets, depending on how much the gate will be used, along with outside outlets, and the loads for same. I just think that you are breaking it way too much down for such a small home.

So basically, Basement lighting can all be on the same circuit, same with each floor, unless you are planning on putting in a bunch of spot and floods, then there has to be some planning. Basement outlets can also come off of the same circuit, unless laundry is down there, then it needs its 120 on its own breaker for just that space, unless. And that is a big unless, that the laundry is in a open space, then just the outlet for the washer or gas dryer needs its own breaker for just that one outlet, everything else can come off of the breaker for the rest of the outlets in the basement.

Ever floor's lighting could come off of the same lighting circuit if you wish, but going back to the above paragraph, what do you plan on putting in for lighting, depends on how much load there will be. With CFL's now days, you could have all floors on the same breaker and never exceed the limit set by the NEC regarding watts or amps.
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Last edited by gregzoll; 01-22-2012 at 11:16 PM.
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Old 01-22-2012, 11:12 PM   #18
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Breaker Panel Replacement Plan


Comments in blue:
Quote:
Originally Posted by jillers View Post
How does this look?

1 12/2 20 - GFCI Gate Motor
2 12/2 20 Refrigerator
3 12/2 15 MWBC Dishwasher/Garbage General note: a MWBC requires a 2-pole breaker, so this is actually spaces 3 and 4 in the panel.
4 12/2 20 - GFCI MWBC DispMicrohood/Stove GFCI is not required, and can't be done at the breaker if you use a MWBC. Would have to be GFCI receptacles - but again, it's not required.
5 12/2 20 -GFCI MWBC Washer/Dryer GFCI optional here (unless the area requires it, for example if there's a sink or it's in a bathroom). I'd do it.
6 12/2 15 Kitchen /Basement Lights General note: there's no reason to use #12 wire on a 15A breaker. Use #14 and save money, or use a 20A breaker.
7 12/2 20 - GFCI Kitchen Counter 1
8 12/2 20 - GFCI Kitchen Counter 2 These two(7/8) can be a MWBC as long as you use GFCi receptacles.
9 12/2 20 Kitchen Outlets This does not need to be separate from 7/8 unless you also supply receptacles outside the kitchen area.
10 12/2 20 Foyer/ Dining Outlets
11 12/2 15 Foyer/ Dining/Living Lights
12 12/2 20 Living Outlets
13 12/2 20 - AFCI Bedroom Outlets
14 12/2 15 Bedroom / Bathroom Lights AFCI required, if your code cycle mandates AFCI.
15 12/2 20 - GFCI Bathroom Outlets
16 12/2 15 Upstairs South Lights
17 12/2 15 Upstairs North Lights
18 12/2 20 - AFCI Bedroom 2 Outlets
19 12/2 20 - AFCI Bedroom 3 Outlets
20 12/2 20 - AFCI Bedroom 4 Outlets
21 12/2 20 - AFCI Bedroom 5 / Hallway Outlets
22 12/2 20 - GFCI Outdoor Receptacles
23 12/2 15 Outdoor Lights
24-30 Free
You have more lighting circuits than needed, by far. The whole house could probably do with 2 15A circuits for lighting.
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Old 01-23-2012, 12:11 AM   #19
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Breaker Panel Replacement Plan


You are on 2008 NEC code verison in LA Californie plus couple local code it may do come up which I don't have their listing for any local code come up.

Basically most circuits you will need AFCI in living area/ bedroom but for GFCI it cheaper to get the receptales due the cost of the breakers.

For breaker brand name it will varies a bit but most of them are good beside GE breakers that part you have to becarefull with them if you get them in 20/40 panel I will try to advoid them much as I can due the twinners or tandem as you speak they don't come in with AFCI or GFCI verison at all so just get a full size panel.

For the service size you can basically stay with 100 amp service if not adding anything large in future but IMO if you going replace the exsting service it will be wise to go with 200 amp due the cost between the two is not very wide differnce due you will be using the All in one box ( meter, main breaker and branch breaker in one panel ) so check it out and I will give you a head up before you do anything with this.,, check with POCO and your inspector to see what type of permits you will have to pull.

Also with service changeover the POCO will be happy to disconnect the service but will not hook it back up until it pass the inspection so that one thing you will have to talk to the inspector for this details ( they can let homeowner do it only with single family homes but multi family home then no it have to be done by electrician )

Merci,
Marc
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Old 01-23-2012, 10:07 AM   #20
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The microhood will need its own circuit.

I try to run my lighting circuits by floor, ie 1st flr lighting, 2nd floor etc.
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Old 01-27-2012, 10:51 PM   #21
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Thank you all!

Here we go again with your revisions:

1 14/2 15 - AFCI Downstairs Lights
2 12/2 20 Microhood
3 14/2 15 MWBC Dishwasher/Garbage Disp
4 12/2 20 - GFCI Kitchen Counter 1 - Does this only need GFCI receptacles, not breaker?
5 14/2 15 MWBC Dishwasher/Garbage Disp (2nd slot)
6 12/2 20 - GFCI Kitchen Counter 2 - Does this only need GFCI receptacles, not breaker?
7 12/2 20 Refrigerator
8 12/2 20 -GFCI MWBC Washer/Dryer - In kitchen, over 6ft from sink, GFCI breaker or receptacle?
9 12/2 20 Kitchen/Laundry Outlets
10 12/2 20 -MWBC Washer/Dryer
11 12/2 20 Foyer/Living Outlets
12 12/2 20 Dining Outlets
13 12/2 20 - AFCI Bedroom Outlets
14 12/2 20 - GFCIBathroom Outlets
15 12/2 20 - AFCI Bedroom 2 Outlets
16 12/2 20 - AFCI Bedroom 3 Outlets
17 12/2 20 - AFCI Bedroom 4 Outlets
18 12/2 20 - AFCI Bedroom 5 / Hallway Outlets
19 14/2 15 - AFCI Upstairs Lights
20 14/2 15 Outdoor Lights
2112/2 20 - GFCIOutdoor Receptacles
22 - 30 Empty

I know you're asking, why so many bedroom outlet circuts? I've read a rule of thumb of 7 outlets per circut and our old hose doesn't have completely square rooms, with the rules of an outlet on any wall space over 24" upon the other outlet rules I figured it would be better to split it up by room.

Last edited by jillers; 01-27-2012 at 10:57 PM.
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Old 01-27-2012, 11:51 PM   #22
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Jillers.,

Where did you get the rules of 7 receptales per circuit ?? is that your local code requriement or not ?

Basicallly there is no limit of number of receptales in resdential in USA side ( I know allready about Canada so not used in this part )

But basically use the common sense with numbers of receptales per circuit and the last time I have to use the AFCI I ran two bedroom per AFCI circuit to keep the cost down someway cuz the cost of AFCI breaker are not cheap they are useally run anywhere from 30 to 60 Euros each. That will add up fast.

Now for GFCI's it much cheaper just use the GFCI recetpale than breaker again the same thing as I mention above the cost. and the GFCI receptale useally only 10 to 18 Euros.

You will have to explain little more on the landury circuit and the way the layout will be.

Merci,
Marc
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Old 01-27-2012, 11:55 PM   #23
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Breaker Panel Replacement Plan


You can wire 1 GFCI receptacle to protect all outlets after it. HD sells a three pack of tamper resistant 20 amp GFCI receptacles for around $45. A single GFCI breaker will set you back from $30 to $60 depending on the brand and line.

You asked about brand of panels. When I was looking to upgrade, most folks were recommending Square D QO or Eaton/Cutler Hammer CH as top of the line. Most others (save GE and Murray) were considered acceptable. A few oldies not normally available, like FPE, translated to "run like its the plague".

As for your bedroom outlets, I was under the impression that 24" only applied if the wall was physically split by an opening such as a doorway. The way you worded it may me think you were talking about curved walls with lots of small corners. Also, you may want to consider that even if your wall layout dictates more outlets, it doesn't increase the amount of power you'll likely use. So you can probably easily stray a bit from the 7 outlet rule of thumb. I recall reading somewhere that residential doesn't have a maximum number of outlets per circuit because the code requires more outlets that folks normally use.
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Old 01-28-2012, 07:58 AM   #24
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It might have been a typo, but I doubt that a bedroom would only have 2 receptacles and would satisfy the 6/12 spacing requirement.

The 2' wall section refers to wall sections like behind a door or between two closet doors or openings.
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Old 01-28-2012, 11:12 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
It might have been a typo, but I doubt that a bedroom would only have 2 receptacles and would satisfy the 6/12 spacing requirement.

The 2' wall section refers to wall sections like behind a door or between two closet doors or openings.
Jim, our master does have only two outlets. That is due to one is orig. the other was added later. I have just been too lazy to locate two more along the wall where the head of our bed sits. It works for us, and because it is grandfathered in from the house being over 75 years old, I really do not feel like doing anything yet to that room.

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