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 mfleming 01-08-2009 10:04 AM

Breaker Panel Layout

Hello.

I'm trying to draft up some plans for my basement and future garage/shop and I only have a limited amount of space left in 100A panel.

I have a pic below. My question is why are some of the major appliances spanning over what looks to be a "unit" ie. A/C which is on 40/42 with a double pole 15A breaker? Can I put anything on 38 or 44 or what?

What exactly does the "line" the divides the two numbers mean?

Where should I leave space for a 60A sub panel for my garage?

One more thing. I have an new LG stove/oven unit we purchased few months ago. From what the manual says it requires a 50A breaker. It looks like I only have a 40A. Would this be why my oven takes 22min to preheat to 425?

 InPhase277 01-08-2009 10:27 AM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by mfleming (Post 209319) Hello. I'm trying to draft up some plans for my basement and future garage/shop and I only have a limited amount of space left in 100A panel. I have a pic below. My question is why are some of the major appliances spanning over what looks to be a "unit" ie. A/C which is on 40/42 with a double pole 15A breaker?
Because the appliances that have a double pole breaker require 240 V. A single pole will provide 120 V only.

Quote:
 Can I put anything on 38 or 44 or what?
Sure. Anything that require 120 V anyway. Most likely, someone removed a breaker from there, and used a filler plate to close the hole.

Quote:
 What exactly does the "line" the divides the two numbers mean?
It means that you are moving from one bus bar to the next.

Quote:
 Where should I leave space for a 60A sub panel for my garage?
25-27 would be a fine spot for it.

Quote:
 One more thing. I have an new LG stove/oven unit we purchased few months ago. From what the manual says it requires a 50A breaker. It looks like I only have a 40A. Would this be why my oven takes 22min to preheat to 425?
The circuit rating has nothing to do with how fast your oven heats.

 mfleming 01-08-2009 11:00 AM

Quote:
 The circuit rating has nothing to do with how fast your oven heats
I read something in the stove manual if you don't have the proper size breaker it can't use 100% of its power so limiting cooking performance ect.

Quote:
 25-27 would be a fine spot for it.
From homedepot the 60A breakers say they take up 4 spots.

This is my layout plan for the electrical panel. Does this look ok?

Here is a pic of inside my box before I switched my office around. The way they the builders initial wired the panel seems stupid. It makes everything really clutter (ie wires running all the way from bottom to top in panel). Do you forsee any issues with the current wiring to add in all the rest of my breakers ect?

 Stubbie 01-08-2009 11:57 AM

I really don't see any issues with your panel wiring as it exists assuming of course I don't see the finished product....:) As for how they wired it coming from the bottom that's fine. I'm not sure why you don't care for the way they wired the panel. Maybe your asking why they didn't come into the panel from the sides ??

I'm a little confused as to why you are showing 41 thru 47 for your double breaker for the feeder to your sub-panel. You will have to use 43 and 45 for that.

 williswires 01-08-2009 12:46 PM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by mfleming (Post 209337) From homedepot the 60A breakers say they take up 4 spots.
Here is the catalog info for your unit. It specifies that the NA series "Original Stab-lok" breakers are 1" wide per pole, so they would take up 2 of your spaces per pole.

The newer NC "Newer Compact Stab-lok" breakers only take up 1/2" per pole. This appears to be what you have installed.

The NC series does not have a 2-pole 60A breaker in the chart, so you will have to install either an NA260 (2 inches wide, or 4 slots that were available if you were using the NC compact 1/2" wide breakers) or an NAH260 (same dimensions, but with a higher IC rating).

http://www.schneider-electric.ca/www.../b_section.pdf

 Stubbie 01-08-2009 01:40 PM

Yep looks like he is correct about the 4 spaces, that's a first for me. So 41 thru 47 would be correct. I didn't see his comment about 4 spaces.

 mfleming 01-08-2009 01:44 PM

Quote:
 I really don't see any issues with your panel wiring as it exists assuming of course I don't see the finished product....:) As for how they wired it coming from the bottom that's fine. I'm not sure why you don't care for the way they wired the panel. Maybe your asking why they didn't come into the panel from the sides ??
Yea why didn't they come in from the sides. Now I have to use holes on the sides and slip the wires through the sides and through all the wires. just seems messy to me.

Quote:
 I'm a little confused as to why you are showing 41 thru 47 for your double breaker for the feeder to your sub-panel. You will have to use 43 and 45 for that.
Here is the 60A breaker I was going to get for the garage sub panel and under the info is says it requires 4 slots, not sure if this means four numbers in my panel or not.
http://www.homedepot.ca/webapp/wcs/s...k=P_PartNumber

 Stubbie 01-08-2009 02:02 PM

Yes as williswires posted you do indeed need four spaces for that breaker so 41 thru 47 would be correct. I've never been in a panel like yours so that is a new one for me. The confusion is they are counting 2 spaces per bus stab instead of one space per bus stab because the NC's are 1/2" each stab is 1 inch. When I saw the other NC double poles I assumed a 60 would be the same...that's what I get for assuming....:)

 jerryh3 01-08-2009 02:33 PM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Stubbie (Post 209432) Yes as williswires posted you do indeed need four spaces for that breaker so 41 thru 47 would be correct. I've never been in a panel like yours so that is a new one for me. The confusion is they are counting 2 spaces per bus stab instead of one space per bus stab because the NC's are 1/2" each stab is 1 inch. When I saw the other NC double poles I assumed a 60 would be the same...that's what I get for assuming....:)
Now, I'm confused. Why does the 60A step up to a 2" breaker? Do they make a 1" 2-pole 60A?

 rgsgww 01-08-2009 02:37 PM

Is that a bx connector being used for the romex to that outlet?

 Stubbie 01-08-2009 02:51 PM

The NC double poles are 1 inch. I suspect they step up to 2" double poles at 60 amps to keep from exceeding there bus stab ratings.

 mfleming 01-08-2009 04:17 PM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by rgsgww (Post 209448) Is that a bx connector being used for the romex to that outlet?
Not sure, that's what the builder used on all the wires coming into the panel. I'll have to take a look at it when I get home. Are these not allowed or something?

 jerryh3 01-08-2009 04:35 PM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Stubbie (Post 209457) The NC double poles are 1 inch. I suspect they step up to 2" double poles at 60 amps to keep from exceeding there bus stab ratings.
Kind of figured that. Looks like the AFCIs are 1" also.

 joed 01-08-2009 04:51 PM

From the catalog posted in the above link it appears the NC breakers are only available up to 50 amp. I am going to take a guess that the max rating per stab connection is 50 amps. By using 2 stabs per pole they can increase that to 100 amps but require 4 slots.

 darren 01-08-2009 05:12 PM

You see that type of panel in canada all the time, i don't think the USA has them because I beleive they are a canadian company.

Whats confuseing about this panel is that 2 and 4 are actually the same phase and 6 and 8 would be the opposite phase. So it is very easy to put a double pole breaker and make it sit on the same phase and not realize it.

I bet you the reason your AC is on 40/42 because it was added after or at the end and they needed it to sit on two different phases so they skipped 38 to acheive this. Thats why they skipped 2 as well, they wanted to start with the stove but needed two different phases.

A few things on your planned circuits.

Circuits 33-39, I would not use 20A plugs I would run them as 15A and if practical use a double pole breaker and use 3 wire and share the neutral.

Circuit 26. Lighting circuits have to protected at 15A, 20A lighting circuits are a code violation.

Circuit 28. Once again I would make this a 15A circuit.

Circuit 32. Same thing, lighting circuit needs to be 15A.

Circuit 34. I would make a 15A circuit.

Circuit 36. Central vacs need a dedicated circuit nothing else can be on that circuit.

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