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Old 11-21-2007, 01:55 PM   #31
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are you blind to the fact that there are hundres of thousands of ELECTRICAL house fires all around the world every year?
No. Are AFCIs going to prevent this??? Do you know this for sure?
If you knew the facts, and not just the propaganda being shown to you, you'd be skeptical too.

Fact is we went from never having heard of an AFCI, to requiring the whole house be covered by them in two code cycles. 1999 introduced them and now two cycles later they want them on EVERY 120v branch circuit. Hell, even GFIs are still being phased in since their inception.
This is a corporate invasion plain and simple. This has FAR less to do with saving lives than with making $$$$$.

Look around. MANY municipalities are adopting the NEC with amendments relaxing the AFCI requirements.

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Old 11-21-2007, 01:59 PM   #32
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Speedy I disagee but my Dad retired from Square d...........
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Old 11-21-2007, 02:46 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
No. Are AFCIs going to prevent this??? Do you know this for sure?
If you knew the facts, and not just the propaganda being shown to you, you'd be skeptical too.

Fact is we went from never having heard of an AFCI, to requiring the whole house be covered by them in two code cycles. 1999 introduced them and now two cycles later they want them on EVERY 120v branch circuit. Hell, even GFIs are still being phased in since their inception.
This is a corporate invasion plain and simple. This has FAR less to do with saving lives than with making $$$$$.

Look around. MANY municipalities are adopting the NEC with amendments relaxing the AFCI requirements.

and many kids were affected by ADD and ADHD way before anyone diagnosed it and came up with a medication for it. does that mean that because kids survived for hundreds of thousands of years it is "made up" to benifet the drug companies?

maybe it is just that i am not a skeptical... and that i dont have a problem with doing something that could make me and my family safer, weather it is real or not. but the reality is that it IS code in many municipalities for them to be on bedroom branch ccts and soon on many more ccts. there isnt anything that can be done about it. the NEC isnt going to take them out of the code because people don't want them there...
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Old 11-21-2007, 02:53 PM   #34
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my post was specificly about AFCI breakers, and that $350 is going to cover ALL the AFCI breakers i will need for my new house under the 2008 NEC.

are you blind to the fact that there are hundres of thousands of ELECTRICAL house fires all around the world every year?

you dont think many are caused by sparking connections?
I do not. When an electric heater is placed near combustable material - the cause of the fire is deemed "electrical." When an extention cord is overloaded and heats to the point where it can cause ignition - the cause is deemed electrical. Arc-fault breakers will not open in these situations.

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call up my father in law, and explain that to him. and he will explain to you how his barn burnt down in '93 and took 150 head of cattle with it.

when you are done, call a friend of my parents, who lost their twins back in the early 80's in a house fire that was electrical.


just because they are new doesnt mean they are a crock. i cant stand the people who think this stuff is all a conspiricy and that AFCI breakers do NO GOOD AT ALL.
I didn't say they'll do no good at all - but there is what as known as a cost-benefit. One does not require an escape ladder from EVERY 2nd story window, though you can do this as an option.

As for your fires - how would a BARN FIRE be prevented by a residential electrical code? And how do you know it was arcing that started it?

Sorry for your parent's friend's loss, but I DIDN'T CAUSE THE FIRE so don't try to use guilt trip to prove your point.
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Old 11-21-2007, 03:11 PM   #35
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maybe it is just that i am not a skeptical... and that i dont have a problem with doing something that could make me and my family safer, weather it is real or not. but the reality is that it IS code in many municipalities for them to be on bedroom branch ccts and soon on many more ccts. there isnt anything that can be done about it. the NEC isnt going to take them out of the code because people don't want them there...
Are you serious? You would have NO PROBLEM implementing a required item, costing whatever it costs, knowing that it is not real? You would just do it and not balk about it, and not say anything to anyone about it?

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Old 11-21-2007, 03:43 PM   #36
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and that i dont have a problem with doing something that could make me and my family safer, weather it is real or not.
Many, MANY, large companies thank you for this!
Yes, even drug companies.
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Old 11-21-2007, 04:04 PM   #37
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Are you serious? You would have NO PROBLEM implementing a required item, costing whatever it costs, knowing that it is not real? You would just do it and not balk about it, and not say anything to anyone about it?


because i am a realist. i know that it wont make a lick of difference.
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Old 11-21-2007, 05:48 PM   #38
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I fail to see the confusion......btw these people are not idiots

Are you trying to tell me that you or I couldn't have worded it better? Are you trying to tell me that there will be no confusion over this?


One simple question. What was the point of listing a few rooms (parlor is my favorite) and then adding "or similar rooms"?




This is only one example of hundreds of pages of poorly written code.

I would not argue that the intentions of the code are important. My only point is that the people that write this kind of crap aren't "smart" enough say what they mean.



PS. IMHO, AFCI = $$$ and ADD = $$$

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Old 11-21-2007, 06:08 PM   #39
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Let me stir the pot a little...Our friends in the UK have GFPE on the entire house. I think AFCI's will save lives. Speedy, I'm not some corporate loving zombie eyed patsy who only hears the propaganda. I actually research stuff and form my OPINIONS based on what I see. I was right in the mix along with everyone else when the AFCI's hit and spent my fair share of time replacing recalled breakers and pulling my hair out wondering if I screwed up or if it is another bad breaker. I HOPE the new round that comes out Jan 1 is an improvement that actually works. I think it will and I think it will save lives.


But really fellows, read the writing on the wall. We will have GFPE as well as AFCI as well as GFCI ON THE ENTIRE house within four code cycles.

Katie bar the door and you heard it here first. CARRY ON.


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Old 11-21-2007, 06:16 PM   #40
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If you ask me since the homeowners will be paying for all these expensive breakers that prevent fires, this should allow them to lower fire insurace costs within a home to help offset the costs.
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Old 11-21-2007, 07:49 PM   #41
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If you ask me since the homeowners will be paying for all these expensive breakers that prevent fires, this should allow them to lower fire insurace costs within a home to help offset the costs.
YEAH! Like that'll happen.
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Old 11-21-2007, 07:50 PM   #42
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because i am a realist. i know that it wont make a lick of difference.
That's funny. I am also a realist.

I also know one person can change the world.
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Old 11-21-2007, 07:57 PM   #43
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That's funny. I am also a realist.

I also know one person can change the world.
I agree SP. Have I ever mentioned that through fate and circumstance I was a registered voter AND participated in the '00 election in Palm Beach County, FL?
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Old 11-21-2007, 08:48 PM   #44
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If you ask me since the homeowners will be paying for all these expensive breakers that prevent fires, this should allow them to lower fire insurace costs within a home to help offset the costs.
Right, and as we can see, homeowners insurance rates have just been plummeting.

Since the 80's, automobiles have become a lot safer. Automatic seatbelts, airbags, anti lock brakes, traction control, anti-theft , and the implementation of LoJack and on-star vehicle tracking, has broken up hundreds of multi-million dollar car theft rings and chop shops. Have car insurance rates declined?

Contrary to what we're told, everything you buy on the retail level has nothing to do with the cost to produce or provide it. Car insurance / homeowners insurance is more expensive where people have more money, and it's dirt cheap where people are dirt poor.
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Old 11-21-2007, 10:47 PM   #45
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I don't care WHAT kind of protection they require in the future as long as it's FIELD tested.

The first bunch of AFCI's we installed several years ago tripped because of toggle switches, fans, vacuum cleaners and low voltage cans.

The last few I have installed have worked on all the above items.

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