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-   -   Brand new building...where are my grounds? (http://www.diychatroom.com/f18/brand-new-building-where-my-grounds-27025/)

ranalli 09-18-2008 05:49 PM

Brand new building...where are my grounds?
 
I just moved into a newly constructed apartment building and upon inspecting my breaker box to ensure I could wire a grounded receptacle in for my dryer I noticed that there were no grounds wired into the box. However, the ground wires on the cables are not cut but instead seemed to be pulled back through the holes in the breaker box. You can see this in the two pictures below.


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3245/...7e8a6c31_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3291/...6c6bbf69_o.jpg

Is this normal? Could these be grounded outside the box somewhere in a place I can't see? Shouldn't there be a ground bar like the neutral bar you see? I find it hard to believe a brand new building would have an issue like this but I've seen stranger things.

Much thanks.

220/221 09-18-2008 06:02 PM

The grounds are likely cut off and folded back under the connector, inside the wall. I saw this done recently in new constuction. I'm not sure what kind of cable it was but apparently it is an approved wiring method.

The panel ground may be the conduit itself. I can't tell from the puic if it is conduit or cable.

You just need to screw a ground bus/lug directly to your panel to terminate additional ground wires.

ranalli 09-18-2008 06:24 PM

Actually....I think it's a lot worse. I just looked at two separate sockets in two separate rooms and neither of them even have grounds wired to them....this is a brand new building...who could have let that pass inspection?? So essentially nothing in my entire apartment seems to be grounded...very dangerous.

220/221 09-18-2008 06:30 PM

Again.


The grounds are likely cut off and folded back under the connector, inside the wall.

The grounds are terminated between the metal cable sheath and the metal cable connector. Apparently it is a new and approved method.

I don't know any details on this cable. I saw them do it on LA Hard Hats (TV show) , constructing a hi rise in LA.

ranalli 09-18-2008 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 220/221 (Post 159265)
Again.


The grounds are likely cut off and folded back under the connector, inside the wall.

The grounds are terminated between the metal cable sheath and the metal cable connector. Apparently it is a new and approved method.

I don't know any details on this cable. I saw them do it on LA Hard Hats (TV show) , constructing a hi rise in LA.


220/221...thanks for your help.


Here's a picture of one of the sockets. There's no ground that I can see that is connected to it. It would normally be attached to the green screw on the side. If I were to plug an appliance in there where would it ground to? There's only two wires connected.


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3290/...a07b8b58_b.jpg


Forgive my ignorance but this doesn't seem right.

jerryh3 09-18-2008 06:44 PM

If this is an apartment building, are you authorized to do electrical work in it?

ranalli 09-18-2008 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jerryh3 (Post 159267)
If this is an apartment building, are you authorized to do electrical work in it?



Well it's a condo I just bought actually...so I guess that's a yes. But I literally just settled a month ago so I'm going to go after these guys if this isn't right or safe.

220/221 09-18-2008 07:24 PM

I know that switches installed in metal boxes do not need to be grounded. The screws are considered a sufficient ground fault path.

I don't know about recepticals. I'll try to look it up.

Speedy Petey 09-18-2008 07:27 PM

THAT IS AC CABLE.
Those bare aluminum strips that are bent back are NOT ground wires. The are bond strips and are designed to be folded back. They DO NOT terminate on any bars or connectors.
The sheath of AC cable is the ground. The bond strip assures this.

If you have "self-grounding" receptacles, the kind with the metal clip at the mounting screw, you are fine and legal.
If not then a grounding jumper to the metal box is mandatory for receptacles.

Speedy Petey 09-18-2008 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ranalli (Post 159268)
Well it's a condo I just bought actually...so I guess that's a yes. But I literally just settled a month ago so I'm going to go after these guys if this isn't right or safe.

BE VARY CAREFUL.
Just because you bought this place DOES NOT automatically mean you can do electrical work there. Many multi-family dwellings are in areas that prohibit untrained, unqualified and unlicensed folks to do work.
There is WAY more at stake than your small portion of the structure.

Cow 09-18-2008 07:30 PM

Looks like AC cable to me. Here's something you might want to look at Ranalli:

http://www.southwire.com/Southwire/S...bleCrosses.pdf

This is for MC cable, but I believe it terminates the same as AC.

No ground wire is required for the receps as long as the receps yoke is listed for self grounding. 250.146(B)

Speedy Petey 09-18-2008 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cow (Post 159281)
This is for MC cable, but I believe it terminates the same as AC.

While similar in construction, AC cable and MC cable terminate in quite different ways.

Matsukaze 09-18-2008 07:41 PM

Boy, Speedy Petey sure lives up to his name. He posted three replies while I was composing this one.

It looks like your condo is wired with type AC cable. The small aluminum wire that's folded back under the connector isn't exactly a ground wire, it's a bonding wire. The metallic sheath of the cable is the grounding conductor. I can't tell from your photo, but if the receptacles are self-grounding like this they don't need a grounding wire connected to the green screw, as long as they're installed in a properly installed, grounded metal box. It looks as if that box is recessed too far--it ought to be flush with the drywall.

Wildie 09-18-2008 07:49 PM

It must be a jurisdictional thing! Here in Ontario Canada, all cable must have a ground wire within the sheath.
The ground must first connect to the box ground screw and then to the receptical or fixture ground screw.
Before this rule was established, BX cable came with a bonding ribbon. The ribbon was turned back and clamped between the metalic sheath and the connector clamp.
For sure grounding turned back on non-metallic sheath cable would not be allowed.

Speedy Petey 09-18-2008 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matsukaze (Post 159285)
Boy, Speedy Petey sure lives up to his name. He posted three replies while I was composing this one.

:thumbup:


BTW, Ranalli, those are NOT self grounding receptacles. I just noticed the picture link.
They absolutely DO require a ground jumper to the box. :eek:


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