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Old 03-13-2008, 09:39 AM   #16
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Not to beat a dead horse but, I have a 4 gang box with 3 sets of 12/3 and 4 sets of 12/2. Box is 60 cu in. It will take 26- 12 ga. wires, says box. My count is 25 with wire and switches, Not including grounds. Are all these grounds considered one. This should be the last question from me about box fill. lol Thanks
I count you right at 26 #12 or 58.5ci. This is a classic case of why I use 14ga on lighting circuits.

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Old 03-13-2008, 10:04 AM   #17
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So all the grounds no matter where they go in the box or no matter which ones get twisted and tailed. count as one. Wow! It just made it. Yeh your right about the 14 gauge. But i can't get myself to use it especially in my own home.
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Old 03-13-2008, 10:26 AM   #18
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I never understood why someone WOULDN'T use it for lighting...
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Old 03-13-2008, 11:12 AM   #19
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So all the grounds no matter where they go in the box or no matter which ones get twisted and tailed. count as one. Wow! It just made it. Yeh your right about the 14 gauge. But i can't get myself to use it especially in my own home.
Any particular reason you won't use 14? Other than you're rich?
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Old 03-13-2008, 11:21 AM   #20
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Any particular reason you won't use 14? Other than you're rich?

Homeowners!!!
I once had a homeowner who insisted I use all 20 ampere receptacles throughout his house because they were on a 20 amp breaker. People just get something in their heads and won't let it go no matter how much you try to reason with them. Give them what they want, and laugh at them later.
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Old 03-13-2008, 11:25 AM   #21
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Homeowners!!!
I once had a homeowner who insisted I use all 20 ampere receptacles throughout his house because they were on a 20 amp breaker. People just get something in their heads and won't let it go no matter how much you try to reason with them. Give them what they want, and laugh at them later.
I had a debate with my uncle about this over the summer. He insisted that because they are on a 20amp breaker they must be 20amp receps. I tried to explain to him that you physically cannot pull a full 20amps through a 15amp recep because of the blade pattern that it wont accept a true 20amp plug...


but because he has been a maintenance manager for 20 years and I have only recently gotten into electricity he was right and I was wrong.
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Old 03-13-2008, 12:32 PM   #22
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Any particular reason you won't use 14? Other than you're rich?
If you have limited breaker space in the panel. More recessed lighting on one breaker. I feel 14 ga. wire just gives off to much heat when loaded.I'll give you an example. Last year lightning hit the ground on the side of my house, traveled to the house via a brine trail from my water softner's backwash,up the ground rod came in through the phone system cooked alot of stuff in the house. Melted all the cat6 together, no more twisted pair, it was all fused together. Anyway that's another story (if you want to see pics I have em, pretty cool) But when the fire dept. came they did a thermal image of the walls to check for fire and I saw my 14/2 and 14/3 heated up pretty good. I am not an expert in thermal imaging but the fireman said it was normal for 14 gauge wire to heat up like that. Well I don't care what the price difference is( not much) that saidI will never use it in my house. Sure it's easy to work with but again not in my house.
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Old 03-13-2008, 12:36 PM   #23
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If you have limited breaker space in the panel. More recessed lighting on one breaker. I feel 14 ga. wire just gives off to much heat when loaded.I'll give you an example. Last year lightning hit the ground on the side of my house, traveled to the house via a brine trail from my water softner's backwash,up the ground rod came in through the phone system cooked alot of stuff in the house. Melted all the cat6 together, no more twisted pair, it was all fused together. Anyway that's another story (if you want to see pics I have em, pretty cool) But when the fire dept. came they did a thermal image of the walls to check for fire and I saw my 14/2 and 14/3 heated up pretty good. I am not an expert in thermal imaging but the fireman said it was normal for 14 gauge wire to heat up like that. Well I don't care what the price difference is( not much) that saidI will never use it in my house. Sure it's easy to work with but again not in my house.
So, when ya gonna post the pics?!?!?
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Old 03-13-2008, 12:37 PM   #24
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So, when ya gonna post the pics?!?!?
I am booting up my other pc now, where they are stored
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Old 03-13-2008, 01:12 PM   #25
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Sorry had to resize
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Box Fill Question-11.jpg   Box Fill Question-2.jpg   Box Fill Question-3.jpg   Box Fill Question-4.jpg   Box Fill Question-5.jpg  

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Old 03-13-2008, 01:48 PM   #26
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Sorry had to resize
Great lightning strike pictures. Now let me ask, are all your grounding electrodes bonded together, ie telephone ground rods and electric service ground rods? Cable TV ground rods? Bond them all together. It will help. And it's code.

As for the 14 ga wire "heating up," sorry, I can't buy that. A 14 gage thhn wire carrying 15 amps will not heat up any more than a 12 gage thhn wire carrying 20 amps.

Ok, you can put what, 2 more cans on a 20 amp circuit than on a 15 amp circuit? How many rooms do you commonly light up with each home run?

Don't get me wrong here, it is your call and your money and this is the USA, so you can do what you wish. I just don't want you to do it while mistakenly thinking it's better some how.
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Old 03-13-2008, 01:58 PM   #27
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I had a debate with my uncle about this over the summer. He insisted that because they are on a 20amp breaker they must be 20amp receps. I tried to explain to him that you physically cannot pull a full 20amps through a 15amp recep because of the blade pattern that it wont accept a true 20amp plug...


but because he has been a maintenance manager for 20 years and I have only recently gotten into electricity he was right and I was wrong.
See, I told you that you need your very own copy of the code. You could have showed him table 210.24.

Maintenance guys can drive you nuts. Especially when they get to be the boss in charge. I've done a lot of wiring in industrial plants and some of the things the maintenance bosses have told me over the years have been a hoot.
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Old 03-13-2008, 02:46 PM   #28
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See the last picture look at the top right of the pic. The little green screw with nothing attached to it. I was in the middle of the media panel install when it happened. I should have made it the first step. The lightning came in thru the 24 ga cat6 and had nowhere else to go but through the network. And the blast mark on the wall where the phone was, it traveled through cat3. Which I can't fathom. When I bought the house it had only one ground rod. So the lightning came up the ground rod and the loop was not there to take it back to ground. I guess. But now the whole service is new since I added an addition onto the house. I was able to use the ufer ground, being I laid footings for the garage foundation. I should have taken a pic of the scorched earth outside that was cool.
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Old 03-13-2008, 04:18 PM   #29
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See, I told you that you need your very own copy of the code. You could have showed him table 210.24.

Maintenance guys can drive you nuts. Especially when they get to be the boss in charge. I've done a lot of wiring in industrial plants and some of the things the maintenance bosses have told me over the years have been a hoot.
It is in the plans to pick up a copy. Unfortunatly to my wife it is not justifiable right now... so unfortunatly i am bound to the online version for now.

But we are starting a gut and remodel of one of the bedrooms next month so I will probably sneek it into the budget as a needed item... she'll never notice.
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Old 03-13-2008, 04:51 PM   #30
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It is in the plans to pick up a copy. Unfortunatly to my wife it is not justifiable right now... so unfortunatly i am bound to the online version for now.

But we are starting a gut and remodel of one of the bedrooms next month so I will probably sneek it into the budget as a needed item... she'll never notice.
I understand how that is. You will have to calmly explain how important that book is for family safety, and insurance compliance, and cost effectiveness, followed by some good old fashioned whining.

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