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Old 03-27-2008, 02:33 PM   #16
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Is that method acceptable?
Yes, as long as the ceiling is finished. Otherwise it would need to be 'on' the running board.

However you may run across an inspector that will not allow it at times.

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Old 03-27-2008, 02:38 PM   #17
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Yes, as long as the ceiling is finished. Otherwise it would need to be 'on' the running board.

However you may run across an inspector that will not allow it at times.
Okay, thanks for taking the time to explain it all.
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Old 03-27-2008, 02:46 PM   #18
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Which would be.....?
Around the perimeter and along the faces of the joists. Along any wood beams available. I follow building surfaces in exposed locations. Above a dropped ceiling the wires can be stapled to the joist bottoms.

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Old 03-27-2008, 03:24 PM   #19
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If the space in the picture is an unfinished basement, then that is not acceptable: the wiring is not attached to the running boards.
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Last edited by HouseHelper; 03-28-2008 at 08:28 AM. Reason: Remove erroneous information. My bad.
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Old 03-27-2008, 04:40 PM   #20
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I knew someone would come along and try to pee on my lawn....

I have shown cables attached to the underside of the joist adjacent to furring strips and is acceptable according to the 2005 NEC. These cables only need to be 1 1/4" away from the edge of the furring strips not from the back side of the sheetrock or the finished side. It is compliance with 300.4 (D).

This is according to the summary of changes for article 300 in the NEC 2005 Handbook:

300.4(D): Revised to add a reference to furring strips, clarifying that even though the strips may not be structural framing members, the 1 1/4" clearance from any edge subject to nail or screw penetration is required to be maintained.

The photo is from the 2005 Handbook page 258.

The furring strips are ceiling framing members. To which the drywall is to be attached. I must maintain at least 1 1/4" from the edge of the framing member (where the nails are intended to be driven). After all that is the purpose of the 1 1/4 clearance to avoid driven screws or nails. It is not strictly a depth distance.

This is different than when running cables through bored holes in studs or joists where I need to be 1 1/4" back from the edge of the stud.

Please site me a reference that says I need to be any distance from a finished surface.

Please give me the IRC or NEC definiton of what constitutes an unfinished basement.

If I tell the inspector I'm finishing the ceiling with rock I am in compliance.

Last edited by Stubbie; 03-27-2008 at 07:36 PM. Reason: spelling & added information
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Old 03-27-2008, 10:53 PM   #21
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That is exactly what I was talking about.

Is that method acceptable?



I am a home owner, plain and simple. I have NEVER done electrical work for money, nor have I done it anywhere besides my own house, my brothers house, and the 3 houses my father in law, sister in law and brother in law have built.

The reason I am here is to learn as much as I can, and ask as many questions as I can about things that I don't know. I have never done anything that I didn't know how to do. I am very throurough with my research before attempting something. I have a brain that never stops thinking, kind of like a kid asking 20 questions. I love to learn, and will never stop taking it in.

I have never been "over my head". I don't think I should be chastised for asking questions!

I respect you. You are a professional. You know a hell of a lot more than me, which is why I assume you post here... to help people. That's why I am here... for the help.
Andy,

You are installing electrical wiring in homes you do not own. I couldn't care less that you're unlicensed, but when you ask questions like "what if I split some of the wires and attached them to a 220 volt breaker" I shutter at the thought that other people are living with your work.

You sound like a capable, but completely unlearned guy. At the VERY least please visit a construction site that is in the rough stages and look at how the work is actually, physically done.
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Old 03-28-2008, 05:10 AM   #22
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Andy,

You are installing electrical wiring in homes you do not own. I couldn't care less that you're unlicensed, but when you ask questions like "what if I split some of the wires and attached them to a 220 volt breaker" I shutter at the thought that other people are living with your work.

You sound like a capable, but completely unlearned guy. At the VERY least please visit a construction site that is in the rough stages and look at how the work is actually, physically done.

Yes, I am doing work on homes that aren't mine, but it is not like I am doing them blind. First of all, my father in law is my guidence most of the time... especially on site. He has been doing construction and electrical all his life. He is also the kind of guy that I can't ask questions like the one you quoted above... because he would say "you don't need to know what would happen".

I ask questions like that to learn more about electricity and what happens in certain situations.

I am doing this work (well, did... 4 houses built in 3 years) always under the guidence of someone else. Never had a red tag for anything major or potentially dangerous (the only red tag's there had been were for trivial things like a wire not stapled close enough to a box or needing to add another outlet).

I really think you have the wrong impression of me.

Really, is there anything wrong with asking the what if questions? Not only do people need to learn what TO do, but also what NOT to do.
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Old 03-28-2008, 05:49 AM   #23
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In the early 1990"s I wired a bunch of houses in Tennessee,( Memphis area) as an electricians helper. It was all piece work. He got rich, I got crap. The code then was, and still might be, 1 wire per hole. We drilled the heck out of those houses. We also used the stab-lock receptacles. I wonder if any of those houses are still standing.

Last edited by RobertS; 03-28-2008 at 05:53 AM.
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Old 03-28-2008, 08:13 AM   #24
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Yes, I am doing work on homes that aren't mine, but it is not like I am doing them blind. First of all, my father in law is my guidence most of the time... especially on site. He has been doing construction and electrical all his life. He is also the kind of guy that I can't ask questions like the one you quoted above... because he would say "you don't need to know what would happen".
Then your Father in law is doing you a great disservice by not answering each and every question you have.

For a green electrician, 220 v circuits seem to be an elusive concept that baffles.
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I ask questions like that to learn more about electricity and what happens in certain situations.

I am doing this work (well, did... 4 houses built in 3 years) always under the guidence of someone else. Never had a red tag for anything major or potentially dangerous (the only red tag's there had been were for trivial things like a wire not stapled close enough to a box or needing to add another outlet).

I really think you have the wrong impression of me.

Really, is there anything wrong with asking the what if questions? Not only do people need to learn what TO do, but also what NOT to do.
The issue I have Andy is that there are certian questions that just by asking them, show that the person is missing a major component of theory. It's apparent you already know the "how." This someone else isn't teaching you WHY. If your theory matched your working experience, you wouldn't be asking what not to do, at least not the one you asked.
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Old 03-28-2008, 08:26 AM   #25
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In the early 1990"s I wired a bunch of houses in Tennessee,( Memphis area) as an electricians helper. It was all piece work. He got rich, I got crap. The code then was, and still might be, 1 wire per hole. We drilled the heck out of those houses. We also used the stab-lock receptacles. I wonder if any of those houses are still standing.
Most likely, yes. Just because devices are stabbed doesn't mean automatic failure is imminent. These days, a consumer is more willing to overspend on a disposable item than a solidly wired, better than code minimum home. Their concern is more towards "will a sofa pit fit across from the fireplace, and, where will I hang that picture of "Dogs playing pool" than whether the kitchen circuits will be adequate.

The question of the quality of construction is typically dismissed right off the bat by homebuilders, with sales fliers that list all of the construction details and "features" their homes have. Usually, they're simply what the minimum codes call for anyway, but are printed as though the builder is going the extra mile by including all kinds of better features and methods, so the homebuyer can immediately put the question of quality behind and move on to invisioning their decorating scheme...

Here, 2 cables in a 7/8 hole was fine, until the NM manufacturers started making the NM even smoother and thinner - and by leaving out the filler in 3-wire cable, so now nobody bats an eye at 3 cables through a 7/8 hole.

Backstabbing is still the modis operendi in tract home construction.
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Old 03-28-2008, 08:29 AM   #26
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Then your Father in law is doing you a great disservice by not answering each and every question you have.

For a green electrician, 220 v circuits seem to be an elusive concept that baffles.


The issue I have Andy is that there are certian questions that just by asking them, show that the person is missing a major component of theory. It's apparent you already know the "how." This someone else isn't teaching you WHY. If your theory matched your working experience, you wouldn't be asking what not to do, at least not the one you asked.
I agree with you. But, just because I don't have a full understanding of HOW a 220v circuit works, doesn't mean I don't know how to install one. That's like saying that because you don't know how an engine works, you shouldn;t drive a car. Learning and understanding is somethint that comes with time, not overnight. It seems that you are implying that I should not do any electrical work at all untill I know everything about electricity.

Like I said, I agree with your statments about my father in law not teaching me certain things, and not wanting to answer my questions. He is old school, and believes that when I asked the question about what would happen with the 2 wires in the double pole breaker should NEVER BE DONE, therefore I don't need to know what would happen. That's the way he is, and I have come to accept it. That's partially why I found this site. Mostly because I have alot of questions that will help me better understand how electricity works that he's just not interested in sitting around playing 20 questions. He knows alot, but hes an ass. If he doesn't want to answer a bunch of questions at once, he won't.

My biggest point is this: I have NEVER... i repeat NEVER... done anything that I was not 100% positive I was doing it right. I do not have advanced knowledge. I have basic knowledge of how a curcuit works, proper wiring methods and so on.

I know you love a good debate, so I have no problem going up against you. But please, don't under estimate my intelligence, knowledge or intentions. I may be ignorant on certain things, but I am not stupid. I can certainly understand things that are explained and showed to me.

When you first started in the business, did you know everything? No, I'm sure you learned as you went along being taught by someone else. You and the other guys here are my "someone else", so to speak.
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Old 03-28-2008, 09:00 AM   #27
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The question of the quality of construction is typically dismissed right off the bat by homebuilders, with sales fliers that list all of the construction details and "features" their homes have. Usually, they're simply what the minimum codes call for anyway, but are printed as though the builder is going the extra mile by including all kinds of better features and methods, so the homebuyer can immediately put the question of quality behind and move on to invisioning their decorating scheme...
That is the truth. A while back I wired a modular home placed on a full basement. The house itself was prewired and came to the site with a 200 amp 20 space panel. WTF? The panel had 2 open spaces. I had the AC, well, furnace, septic system, basement, and garage sub panel to go. 11 more spaces min. Having to add a sub panel to a brand new house is just plain dumb. The inspector told me that particular manufacturer is famous for this. How much did the manufacturer save by not putting in a 42 space panel? I know what it cost the home owner.

Yes it would accept tandems. But pulling out the QO's and putting in tandems, would have cost more than installing a QO lug sub.
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Old 03-28-2008, 09:16 AM   #28
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But, just because I don't have a full understanding of HOW a 220v circuit works, doesn't mean I don't know how to install one. It seems that you are implying that I should not do any electrical work at all untill I know everything about electricity.
Here is a constructive suggestion for you Andy. Why not take some time and read a book or two on practical electrical theory? Find out what the electrons do in one of those circuits you install. Where do they come from and where do they go? What do they do with the ground rod you install? Sooner or later you are going to want to trouble shoot one of those circuits. And it is a whole lot easier if you understand what you are looking at. I can't imagine just knowing how to do something without knowing why in this field. Maybe that's just me.

You better know that the car engine uses oil and water and not just gas to run, or you're gonna have trouble sooner or later.
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Old 03-28-2008, 09:27 AM   #29
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Here is a constructive suggestion for you Andy. Why not take some time and read a book or two on practical electrical theory? Find out what the electrons do in one of those circuits you install. Where do they come from and where do they go? What do they do with the ground rod you install? Sooner or later you are going to want to trouble shoot one of those circuits. And it is a whole lot easier if you understand what you are looking at. I can't imagine just knowing how to do something without knowing why in this field. Maybe that's just me.

You better know that the car engine uses oil and water and not just gas to run, or you're gonna have trouble sooner or later.
John
Well, I have a few basic electrical wiring books that I have read, but they only cover the basics or actual wiring... they don't cover the questions I have been asking.

I recently ordered "Schaum's Outline of Basic Electricity" about 2 weeks ago, came in the mail the other day but have not had a chance to crack it open yet.

I like to read. I will have no problems reading through this, but my problem is a book can't give you a reponse like a human can. Yes, it can give you the facts, but it can't take the time to explain easier something you may not understand. This is why I like to ask questions here. If someone gives a technical answer and I don't understand, I can ask WHY and they can explain it a different way.
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Old 03-28-2008, 09:45 AM   #30
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Andy

Boy for just an average guy you sure have brought a lot of attention to yourself......

Let me see if I can steer you in the right direction as for resources. First good books on theory (how things work) and things like grounding vs bonding, different voltage configurations ie single phase and three phase, transformers etc.. can't be had at the home centers or even libraries. Your going to have to spend a few bucks. Stop by a job site and ask the electricians where the trade book bookstore is located. There are usually two or three in the larger cities. You will find everything you can possibly imagine there. You can find a few good books at junior colleges that have trade courses.
Also on line at Mike Holt Or Tom Henry....Tom Henry was a big part of the electrical construction at Disney World in Florida. I met him years ago and have been to his bookstore outside Orlando, quite a fellow and he has excellent books on electrical theory and about anything you can think of in this trade.

Btw...and this is just my opinion...your father in law doesn't ask 'those' questions because he does not know the answers. To say you don't need to know what is going to happen is a ticket to disaster.

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